[Way OT] Military opporutinities for the fairer sex

[AngelTears]

Greets,

I was wondering as a non-American and sloghing through "I am in college and I want to join the Army/Navy/air Force for excitment and a safe, paying job"

What are the job opportunities for us women in the military?

I myself am a citizen in Finland with join Citizenship in Canada, who has spent jr. high and part of high-school in Russia (most of my friends from there are on extended tours in Chenchnya there - I got a postcard talking about Sasha's funeral a month ago), and am pretty fluent in Russian still (as well as Vietnamese and Arabic - I was unemployed for a while so I taught myself languages as a way to while away the time). Technically I could apply for conscription and get into the Finnish Army (we have an opporutnity to go volunteer here, if you are a woman).
Unfortunately I don't see a similar opportunity like they have the French Foreign Legion (Except for two notable women who have served in the French Foreign Legion, one around 1895 and another during the Second World War - it is really men's only affair). As for combat - I am not afraid of it. I have worked several years in the Red Cross as a volunteer and I think I have the stomach for the atrocity.

Since most militaries are men only, does that mean that there are no such front-line job opportunities for women at all? or would it mean looking into the very shady business of the professional mercenary?

This isn't yeat a really pertinent question, since I was planning getting my degree first (going off to Montreal in a year or so and graduate with a Canadian (Quebecois?) / Finnish diploma).

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I knew/know a good few women who were going into the military in various capacities in the United States. They seemed to think there were good opportunities in for education, employment, advancement, and service. Don't know what they thought about their position in the lines and I don't know what that position might have been, but they were going and pretty happy.

As I understand the opportunities have been expanding rapidly in the last few years. I have no idea about the situation in other national militaries or mercenary services.

 

[Lizard]

Hmmm...trying to reconcile "Military" and "safe"....uhm, you do know that, sooner or later, being in the military means going somewhere where people are trying to kill you, right? (I ask because, back in Gulf War I, there were a spate of 'conscientious objectors' appearing in the ALL VOLUNTEER American military. I strongly oppose the draft in all forms, but, dammit, if you willingly sign on the dotted line, you can't just "discover" that you "hate war and killing and all that stuff" when it looks like you might have to do the job you agreed to do, which is, to get shot at, and shoot back.)

That said...I am not female, but I know several women who are ex-military, and most of them did pretty well (the one who didn't, well, to be blunt, she didn't do well at anything else, either). The biggest 'glass ceiling' you'd face if you really wanted to make a career of it is the fact that you won't be on the front lines, and, without direct combat experience, the top ranks are closed to you. Someone who never experienced combat is not going to be on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Beyond that, MOST of the military is sexually integrated, with women serving in a wide range of capacities. many of which put them quite close to actual combat. You would probably do best in the Air Force, as, based on what I've been told by female vets, it's the most woman-friendly.

Of course, if you're foreign, I have no clue what the rules are -- I don't know if the American military admits non-citizens or not. Which is a really dumb thing NOT to know, and now, I have to find out...

I'm pretty sure the Israeli army uses women in front-line combat positions, but I don't know if they take foreign applicants, either.

(As a side note, if you're fluent in both Russian AND Arabic, the folks at the NSA or CIA might want to talk to you about job opportunities...)

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Greets,

I was wondering as a non-American and sloghing through "I am in college and I want to join the Army/Navy/air Force for excitment and a safe, paying job"

Good for you. For me it was: "I am out of college and got drafted into an extremely low-paying, boring job with lots of mindless, repetetive work coupled with lots of sleep deprivation, instead of working in a research lab and getting a decent wage as any trained physicist should."

God, I hate boot camp!

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I knew, or at least saw walking around, a lot of military women training for various translating capacities around the Monterey Language Insitute. There is a lot of demand for language facility in the American military. And they have some good programs. My academic colleagues are constantly pilfering military and state department language programs.

 

[KitanaVorr]

In the United States women are allowed to do anything but be in frontline combat. We just recently were allowed to fly fighter jets. We're not allowed in the special forces either like Navy Seals. So for country that emphasizes equality, there's not much for women in the military.

I don't know about you, but it doesn't matter what gender you are, the gun doesn't care who fires it. Also if you know martial arts very well, its not strength that makes the best fighter, it is speed, agility, and intelligence to know where to hit for maximum damage with little effort.

There was a time when women fought with men in battle or commanded men in battle (see Vietnam 10AD) but then religions that did away with the female god to fill it with a male god kind of killed it.

 

[Sixchan]

<snip>

Since most militaries are men only, does that mean that there are no such front-line job opportunities for women at all? or would it mean looking into the very shady business of the professional mercenary?

<snip>

Wow...I didn't know that was still a possible career path...
*begins picturing self as Mercenary in Matrix-style shootouts*
Ooh....must kill...everyone with...massive guns...

 

[s/LaSH]

Statistically speaking, I believe the military is the safest place to be when war breaks out - you stand a better chance of surviving than a civilian. This from my father, who (as well as being a Catholic priest) once held rank as a Captain in the Engineers and who has a bit of an interest in military history.

Philisophically, I agree that there's no reason not to have female front-liners. If there's statistical evidence to support the opinion that women tend to be slightly smaller than men... well, smaller targets are ALWAYS a good thing. Hm, hadn't thought of that before. Anyway, that's my opinion and a good reason to join the army.

 

[DM_Matt]

I'm pretty sure the Israeli army uses women in front-line combat positions, but I don't know if they take foreign applicants, either.

They have been reducing the role of women in combat over time. Over the almost 55 years that that country has existed and used women in combat they have discovered that it really doesnt work too well. It used to be that they had to do it because they needed the numbers, but as the technology and training gap between Israel and their neighbors increases, they are becoming better able to avoid making women fight.

Military service is still mandatory for women there from the ages of 18-21 (men serve through 23), and both sexes remain in the reserves for a long time (Men until 55, women until 52, iirc). Women often serve their years in other jobs, though, such as in military-affiliated civilian hospitals or other civil-defense or support roles.

Israel is a place known for the toughness of their women. It was one of the best places in the world to try to put women on the front lines, and it still doesnt work.

In combat roles, men, statistically speaking, really are capable of more, and the way that co-ed units alter group dynamics (not to mention maternity leave) is really bad for morale. Feminists don't like it, but from study after study, and, in Israel, the experience of five wars and countless skirmishes, it just happens to be the case.

In the US, the Clinton administration created separate lower standards for women in order to get as many of them into as many units as possible, which will serve to further damage morale. One result was many unqualified women flying fighter jets into the ground (or the sea).

Then again, Clinton hated the military.. He slashed the military budjet, including training, equiptment, etc, overruled the military on women and gays to sacrifice morale to support his pet interest groups, and degraded the military so much that he had to abandon the "two major wars at once" doctrine that the US really needs right now (Not that I am saying that the US SHOULD go to war with Iraq and North Korea simultaneously, but the fact that the NKs know that the US CANT do anything to them for now because so many forces are being positioned qagainst Iraq obviously is a major factor in weakening the American bargaining position.).

 

[LrdApoc]

In the United States women are allowed to do anything but be in frontline combat. We just recently were allowed to fly fighter jets. We're not allowed in the special forces either like Navy Seals. So for country that emphasizes equality, there's not much for women in the military.

I don't know about you, but it doesn't matter what gender you are, the gun doesn't care who fires it. Also if you know martial arts very well, its not strength that makes the best fighter, it is speed, agility, and intelligence to know where to hit for maximum damage with little effort.

There was a time when women fought with men in battle or commanded men in battle (see Vietnam 10AD) but then religions that did away with the female god to fill it with a male god kind of killed it.

Kitiana,

I don't know how this will go over.. since I served as a Marine for 5 years and am male, but from personal experience the limitations you insist on for equality are nothing to rally for. It's one thing to have equal opportunity, which exists in the US Military for anyone willing to work hard enough, however I think your view is obviously slanted if you think the military is a strictly patriarchal enterprise.

Female officers deserve and should get no less respect from military personnel for their sex, than males. The respect is given for rank, but earned for competency... that rule applies to any sex.

As far as the removing women from command decisions, I would disagree. The position of commanding troops is for officers, regardless of sex. While current political dogma keeps women from the 'front-lines' I would posit that that term is an antiquated one. Female officers and enlisted play vital roles in everyday execution, maintenance and mission planning just like their male counterparts.

As a Sergeant I was responsible for 20 men and 3 women. One of those women was lazy and worthless, but 7 or 8 of the men were as well.. none of them were ever put in leadership roles. On the other hand the 2 women Marines who served well, were outstanding compared to their male counterparts. They chose to be this way, it was not because they were women.

In the sense of job function, the military generally takes a gender neutral approach, with the exception of the aforementioned 'Combat Infantry' Positions. Good order and discipline must be maintained, and until such time as we have a society that accepts the female soldier or marine as expendable, like their male counterparts.. we will not see acceptance of official front line women.

Note however that even in the segregated Marine Corps training, female recruits undergo the same training as male recruits.. why? Because every Marine is a basic Rifleman.. Man or Woman in time of crisis.

So in conclusion, No the gun doesn't care who gets killed in combat, but the people of America still do.

I respect your differing view, but I have to respectfully disagree. Commanding 'men' in battle is the job of an officer or NCO. Sex matters little. From your tone it sounds as though you would prefer a different form of discrimination.. a matriarchy. What would that solve?