[Way OT] Military opporutinities for the fairer sex

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Re: Re: [Way OT] Military opporutinities for the fairer sex

Sixchan said:


Wow...I didn't know that was still a possible career path...
*begins picturing self as Mercenary in Matrix-style shootouts*
Ooh....must kill...everyone with...massive guns...

Wow Sixchan, at first you were kinda cute and funny ... now you're just scary ...
 

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Re: Re: Re: [Way OT] Military opporutinities for the fairer sex

Talath said:


Wow Sixchan, at first you were kinda cute and funny ... now you're just scary ...

...Don't worry...that was just the schizophrenia talking...;)
 

Lizard said:
Hmmm...trying to reconcile "Military" and "safe"....uhm, you do know that, sooner or later, being in the military means going somewhere where people are trying to kill you, right? (I ask because, back in Gulf War I, there were a spate of 'conscientious objectors' appearing in the ALL VOLUNTEER American military. I strongly oppose the draft in all forms, but, dammit, if you willingly sign on the dotted line, you can't just "discover" that you "hate war and killing and all that stuff" when it looks like you might have to do the job you agreed to do, which is, to get shot at, and shoot back.)

I never understood the appeal either of those who start talking about to the young recruit about "safe" job opportunities. And rarely have I heard, let me correct I have never heard of anyone here advocating infantry. Is it then assumed that something about collective intelligence? Or is it something else?

Anyways, Finland was during the cold war the welcome mat of the Soviet Union, which involves certain countries wiping their feet on it. Looking back at my childhood I can say that when doing fire drills they do not normally involve duck and cover maneuvers. Or parents should feel it their obligation to send their children to the scouts.


That said...I am not female, but I know several women who are ex-military, and most of them did pretty well (the one who didn't, well, to be blunt, she didn't do well at anything else, either). The biggest 'glass ceiling' you'd face if you really wanted to make a career of it is the fact that you won't be on the front lines, and, without direct combat experience, the top ranks are closed to you. Someone who never experienced combat is not going to be on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Beyond that, MOST of the military is sexually integrated, with women serving in a wide range of capacities. many of which put them quite close to actual combat. You would probably do best in the Air Force, as, based on what I've been told by female vets, it's the most woman-friendly.

I still have to point out, that I was specifically thinking about infantry. If I wanted to I can easily go and teach English in a village in Afghanistan, or a town in Vietnam or a city in China.


Of course, if you're foreign, I have no clue what the rules are -- I don't know if the American military admits non-citizens or not. Which is a really dumb thing NOT to know, and now, I have to find out...

As a general rule the armed forces of one country don't recruit citizens from another. Although the German SS and volunteer SA units seemed to have been the exception to the rule.


I'm pretty sure the Israeli army uses women in front-line combat positions, but I don't know if they take foreign applicants, either.

The Israeli army has previously done so, but it has under a study stopped doing it, since the men in the unit were known to put themsleves in inordinate harm to protect a fellow woman soldier. Police units are generally discouraged since Palestinians (usually young men) find it personally insulting to put a woman against the "men", and as such do not have the same commanding presence of a man. On the other hand there has been more cooperation with check-point guards who are women.


(As a side note, if you're fluent in both Russian AND Arabic, the folks at the NSA or CIA might want to talk to you about job opportunities...)

The CIA has what I can only call a poor track record in my opinion. And I don't want to spend ten to twenty years translating newpaper articles and news stories from Al-Jazeera or articles from the Pravda or Military Parade. This is with the added of stressor of being a foreigner.
 
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There's always the "Intelligence Community". It may not be front line work, but its still important in the over all scheme of things. I'm not sure if the CIA will take a non-US Citizen though. But speaking as many languages as you do, you'd be a pretty good candidate.

Edit: (oops....didn't see your above response.)

AngelTears:
The CIA has what I can only call a poor track record in my opinion. And I don't want to spend ten to twenty years translating newpaper articles and news stories from Al-Jazeera or articles from the Pravda or Military Parade. This is with the added of bonus of being a foreigner, so I can be fired whenever they want to.

Well, I'm not well versed in CIA job placement, but I think if you went into the fields where you did sit around and do paperwork, then yah...that would happen. But there are positions for foriegn agents too y'know.

But then again.....what personal need/goal are looking to accomplish?
 
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Fenros said:

But then again.....what personal need/goal are looking to accomplish?

I think the answer is: pushing myself to the edge. Pushing both my mind and my body to the limit, when it starts to snap. In some ways I am looking for adventure, but I am looking for it in the monotony of it. I have worked 16 hours a day, where I have Saturday off and I start work again in the evening of Sunday. Every day the same, but different. I want to prove myself in my own eyes and that of others to the right of life, not existence, but life.

I am used to organizing mass events, and to get people to work, I usually plug into the command system that most have been taught in the Finnish army to great effect.

But I think the advantage with a military is that there is loss of self into that of a group. There is no longer 'I' but 'we', I either shine or simply become immersed in the press of bodies. I want the adversarial/pressure cooker and see can I shine under the pressure or will I simply dim.
 

AngelTears said:




But I think the advantage with a military is that there is loss of self into that of a group. There is no longer 'I' but 'we', I either shine or simply become immersed in the press of bodies. I want the adversarial/pressure cooker and see can I shine under the pressure or will I simply dim.

I think that is an admirable goal actually.. the true mettle of the person is demonstrated only when they are tempered in fire.. cream floats to the top. I wish you luck in seeking out this goal, it sounds like you have a good idea of what you need to do to achieve it, however I don't feel that an Infantry job is the only vocation that can promote this.. in fact Infantry life is mostly short durations of extreme stress and physical exhertion followed by long periods of innactivity.
 
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Well, I'm all for the integration of women into the military, including combat roles. For many of the requirements of modern combat, a women can do the job as well a man - especially a modern women raised in sports, to control her emotions, and to value herself as the equal of a man (in other words raised equally with men). The modern military runs on effective error free communication, attention to detail, rapid and judious decision making, and good planning - all of which I have no reason to believe that women can't do as well as men. I have every reason to believe that our military, which I have the greatest respect for, increasingly believes the same and at the very least teaches this to its recruits. However, there seems to be some resentment despite this, which I find completely impossible to understand.

"We're not allowed in the special forces either like Navy Seals. So for country that emphasizes equality, there's not much for women in the military.

I don't know about you, but it doesn't matter what gender you are, the gun doesn't care who fires it. Also if you know martial arts very well, its not strength that makes the best fighter, it is speed, agility, and intelligence to know where to hit for maximum damage with little effort.

There was a time when women fought with men in battle or commanded men in battle (see Vietnam 10AD) but then religions that did away with the female god to fill it with a male god kind of killed it."

Now, I don't think that there is a significant difference in the accuracy that is attainable by a female with firearm and a man. Witness famous sharpshooters like Annie Oakley. Witness my grandma before her health failed, for that matter. But there is a whole lot more to being combat infantry than the ability to pull a trigger and hit what you are aiming at. No matter what age you are talking about, full combat gear for combat infantry runs between 60 and 100lbs, and although this isn't a very popular thing to say there aren't a whole lot of women that can handle 80lbs of gear as comfortably as a man. I'm sure there are some, but the small number that can does not justify the extra complexity of a mixed sex infantry platoon/squad whatever. And, again, Hollywood movies not withstanding, there are NO women on the face of the earth that can qualify as a SEAL. There are very very few men that can. The physical requirements are just way too high.

Furthermore, any person that tells that speed, agility, and intelligence can make up for strength in hand to hand combat hasn't done alot of hand to hand combat - or for that matter doesn't understand how closely strength and speed are related. I'm not the greatest fencer in the world, but I can hold my own against the a collegiate female fencer that is accounted quite good though I'm meat for her male counterparts. And in physical combat, the advantage of strength and mass would be that much greater. Yes, there are some female boxers that would probably lay me out on my back, but there are no female boxers than can compete with the best male professionals, just as the Serena sisters (good as they are) would be decimated by even a relative low ranked male professional, or a decent men's senior player. Not that hand to hand combat is that important in modern war, and if it were only that it probably wouldn't matter.

Given all that, I don't think there has ever been widespread and significant female combat infantry anywhere on the planet, nor do I see a reason to begin now. But, in today's army, you can fly a fighter, serve aboard a warship, or pilot an armed remote drone (and probably any number of other jobs I'm not aware of) if you really want to be directly involved in combat; and, no one can say that the job you did was less important than any other job in the armed forces.

As for the original question, you can serve in the US Armed Forces if you are not a citizen provided you are a legal permenent resident (and indeed it speeds the process of gaining citizenship), though I have no idea why you would want to unless you wish to become a citizen of the USA. My general responce to this is, would you serve faithfully if the US invaded Finland? Not that there is any danger of us invading Finland, but if in your heart the answer is no, then please don't join. The oath is that sacred. If you aren't willing to give up your other loyalties, don't take an oath that you might be tempted to break at some point.

On a final note, don't join the French Foreign Legion. It is not nearly so romantic as it is made out to be. The equipment is tradiationally lousy, the assignments horrible, the indoctrination brutal, and the death rate in combat historically frighteningly high.
 

Re

Angel Tears,

As far as I know, you can have a good career in the American military as a woman. The only jobs I know of that don't allow woman are aforementioned "Combat" positions. As far as I know, you can still be in "Combat Support" positions and can be a part of the intelligence community.

I believe DELTA uses a few female operatives for intelligence gathering purposes and I am pretty sure the intelligence community employs females in special operations. Though I cannot say this with absolute certainty.

I also believe that the US military does allow foreign citizesn to join, though I am not sure of the requirements. Maybe some of the military folks on this board can give more information.




P.S.: Not going to get deep into it, but as an American male, I would never want females put on the front line. I have pretty much been trained from birth to protect females and not hurt females, to be put in a position where I was supposed to watch them die if necessary is a place I never want to be. I would feel as though I had failed to carry out my duty as a male in my own country.

Women are not as expendable as men. If there is a war, it is the duty of the male to fight that war to defend the females and children from an aggressor, and to die if necessary to carry out that duty.
 

Re: Re

Celtavian said:


P.S.: Not going to get deep into it, but as an American male, I would never want females put on the front line. I have pretty much been trained from birth to protect females and not hurt females, to be put in a position where I was supposed to watch them die if necessary is a place I never want to be. I would feel as though I had failed to carry out my duty as a male in my own country.

And yet it seems a good chunck of american males consider it their right or even responsibility to 'hurt' females they are dominant over. Can we get a little bit of middle ground between men who think women are tiny fragile flowers who's deaths are a massive tragedy and those who think women are property whose deaths can be kinda erotic?

But then there's the scarey part - what if some of them are the same men... oh wow, some are...

The protectiveness you feel, and the inferior social position it leads to are not protecting women. I'm not attacking you personally, or saying that you are complicit in domestic abuse, but considering the rates of domestic violence amoung military families, isn't the old "it would destroy moral to see a woman hurt" thing kinda... weird? Not neccassarily untrue, just indicitive of some serious bipolar attitudes?

Kahuna Burger
 

Celebrim said:
And, again, Hollywood movies not withstanding, there are NO women on the face of the earth that can qualify as a SEAL. There are very very few men that can. The physical requirements are just way too high.

I hate to say it, but this line removes any respect or attention I might give to the rest of your post. It is simply beyond the pale of useful discussion to make that absolute a comment. Such things have been said many times about many jobs and have been wrong.

Its too bad that you might have some useful comments to contribute, but you tag yourself as a ideologue to be ignored like this.

Kahuna Burger
 

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