Way to block detection of illusions?

[Twowolves]

I'm one of those folks that really wished they had given the Illusionists the attention and "crunch" they deserved in 3.x edition. Also, being one of the ancient ones having both played and DMed all three editions, I have lots of random rules bits in my head, but not always sure about where they came from or what edition they were from.

Having said that, I recall a rule/house rule that states that Illusionists can realisticly create up to 2HD worth of creatures per level, and those must be things they are familiar with. This was in line with the old 2HD/lvl limit on druidic animal friends and necromancer's controlled undead. Also, not having the books in front of me, I was under the impression that the Silent Image spells were area spells, and you could make just about anything you wanted so long as they were confined to the area of effect. Has this changed?

More to the topic at hand, stronger magical auras can mask lesser ones, and you do have to concentrate for a few rounds each time to get the number and strength of each aura. Just fill the area with as many permanent or semi-permanent magic as you can. Like the old Magic Mouth with the trigger to speak "at the end of time" or some such.

Also, in one of the Relics and Rituals books from S&SS (RRII I think) had a high level "reverse illusion" spell, which you put on a real creature that made it seem "wrong" and trick people into disbelieving it. Essentially, disbelieving meant you had to stand there and drop your defenses, at which time the masked critter took a big very REAL bite out of your leg.

Just some aimless ramblings....

TwoWolves

 

[Nail]

I think that one of the illusion spells, Programed image IIRC, mentions as a example creating the illusion of a bunch or orcs fighting. If they screwed with the example, or the spells allow creating the illusion of several connected or related things is unclear.

All the "image" spells refer to the 1st level Silent Image. That spell specifies ony one creature or object. Not 20.

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you.

You might be thinking of Programmed Image, a Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 6 spell.

 

[Felix]

That spell specifies ony one creature or object. Not 20.

Fair enough. Cast Programmed Image 20 times. Set to go off when an alarm bell rings and the real orc guards start firing their arrows. Not too tall an order for a wizard with a lot of time and a keep to defend. Either way, it'll be easy peasy for a smart illusionist to mingle 20 fake guards with 10 real ones.

I'm one of those folks that really wished they had given the Illusionists the attention and "crunch" they deserved in 3.x edition.

I disagree. I think the crunch of Illusion magic is best left in the hands and mind of the player and DM. Imagination is the limit of illusion; folks who won't use their imagination will fail to see the power of this school.

 

[Twowolves]

Well, by "crunch" for Illusionists, I was thinking more along the lines of "X ranks of Knowledge/Arcana to make a realistic illution of Y creatures" or "saves to disbelieve illusions get +x for each stimulus missing" or "Z number of HD worth of creatures can be contolled per level/rank of concentration/rank of spellcraft/whatever" or "believed illusions can inflict up to 1d6 hp per round of subdual damage with a successful touch attack" etc etc etc.

Player: "I want to make an illusion of an elephant."

DM: "Has your character ever even seen of an elephant?"

Player: "Well, no, but I'm sure I read about them once. Somewhere. In a book, I think. It had pictures!"

I fully understand and agree that the player's imagination is the most key factor, but some better guidelines for the DM to use would help.

TwoWolves

 

[Nail]

Fair enough. Cast Programmed Image 20 times. Set to go off when an alarm bell rings and the real orc guards start firing their arrows. Not too tall an order for a wizard with a lot of time and a keep to defend. Either way, it'll be easy peasy for a smart illusionist to mingle 20 fake guards with 10 real ones.

Better!

("easy peasy"??)

The only problem I see is the concept of "script" in the spell description(s). (See Persistent Image {Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5}.) Can the script account for other creatures actions?

For example: Let's say our enterprising Illusionist is fortifying her lair. She casts Programmed Image 20 times, with the trigger "when the guards are attacked". The images are of other guards, and their script is to rush out from around various corners and attack whoever the real guards are attacking.

How do the illusionary guards:

• select targets,
• react to damage,
• help or ignore the real guards,
• provide flanking opportunities for the real guards,
• attack the intruders,
• react to changing combat conditions,
• etc.

Put another way: How specific is the script? How specific can it be?

 

[Felix]

("easy peasy"??)

Yer darn tootin!

How specific is the script? How specific can it be?

Not so specific that were the PCs to face it, they couldn't figure out it's an illusion after a few rounds of fighting it. I can't really think of a better restraint, or one flexible enough that any group could tailor it to their liking.

I fully understand and agree that the player's imagination is the most key factor, but some better guidelines for the DM to use would help.

For some of that stuff I could see WotC putting a sidebar in the Magic overview or perhaps in the DMG, but when it comes to what the wizard can illude to I don't know that any degree of crunch will help.

For the HD problem, the illusionist must stay within size limits of the spell. As he gains levels, the area of effect becomes larger. And generally, the more HD the bigger.

For the saves, it's already easier to disbelieve Silent Image than Major Image... they're two spell levels different. That's a +2 to the will save, eh?

And if your illusionist wants to do damage, well, I reccommend the Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation spells. Or just remain confident in the belief that if the enemy is busy confronting the illusions, they arn't busy killing the other PCs, so they can last longer and do more damage, so that's the damage the illusions enable.

YMMV

 

[Twowolves]

Just because Silent Image and Major Image are different level, and therefore have different save DC, has nothing to do with missing elements of an Illusion. After all, I can Highten a Silent Image to 6th level and have a mute red dragon that has no odor nor warmth, but would still have a higher save DC than the exact same illusion made with the "lesser" Major Image spell cast as a 3rd level spell, no?

Also, size /= HD, nor CR. A cockatrice is not very large, nor a beholder, really. Surely these exotic creatures are more difficult to create effectively than a green slime or an orc, or even a (high HD) hill giant. In such cases, a little guideline or guidance or rule of thumb would be nice. After all, why would you make an illusion of an orc brandishing an axe, when for the same spell you could have a beholder? Even though both are illusions, which would you interact with (in order to get a save) if you are 3rd level?

Twowolves

 

[Someone]

All the "image" spells refer to the 1st level Silent Image. That spell specifies ony one creature or object. Not 20.




You might be thinking of Programmed Image, a Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 6 spell.

Yes, and in the example of that spell, it mentions creating the illusion of several orcs (orcs are creatures). Examples are supposed to clarify the text, pointing to the actual intent of the designers, but the text clear and explicitly only allows for one creature. That´s the reason I said "it was unclear", in the sense that the rules contradicted themselves in two points, the example and the rules of the Silent Image spell.

Anyway, I´d like to know at what point do these illusions break the rules:

"I want to create one statue of two orcs shaking hands"

"I want to create one incredibly realistic, polychromated life-like statue of two orcs shaking hands"

"I want to create one incredibly realistic, polychromated life-like statue of two orcs shaking hands. Then make the illusion move, making the one statue dance."

"I want to create one incredibly realistic, polychromated life-like statue of two orcs shaking hands. Then make the illusion move, making the one statue dance. At one point, the statue breaks in two pieces, and each piece of the one statue exactly corresponding to one orc"

"I want to create one incredibly realistic, polychromated life-like statue of two orcs shaking hands. Then make the illusion move, making the one statue dance. At one point, the statue breaks in two pieces -each piece of the one statue exactly corresponding to one orc- and they continue moving"

"I want to create the illusion of a pair of orcs"

 

[Nail]

Fun example!

The problem comes when the statue breaks in two pieces, as I'm sure you well know.

At any rate, the "orc" example in the text is only under the spell Persistant Image in the PH, page 260. It is not in any of the other image spell descriptions (nor is it in the SRD, significantly). And none of the image spells refer to Persistant Image; they do all refer to Silent Image.

Can you say errata?

 

[Someone]

I´d like to see any clarification or errata with illusions, yes. The example in the programmed image spell is missing from the SRD, not surprising since it doesn´t contain any example (like the one in the Empower Spell feat with the magic missile). Notice, however, that it continues to refer to silent image for details, presumably including the "one creature..." part.

Edit: Ok, it´s kosher until the statue breaks or the pieces become disjoined. That would mean that you can create the illusion of several orcs, as long they are touching each other, or are joined by invisible, elastic rubber bands