Ways to assess an encounter early

[Ferghis]

As a player, one of the main problems I have in an encounter is figuring out when to deploy daily and other resources. Sometimes it's easy, such as when a character really needs healing to stay in the fight (you spend the surge), or when targets are perfectly positioned for that area-affecting daily power. But I often horde my non-encounter resources waiting for either a dire circumstance or a perfect opportunity to use them. My defenders often finish the day with extra action points and several daily powers. This isn't necessarily a problem, but I had a character who used a particular daily once throughout his long career.

Another issue in 4e, again, perhaps only for me, is figuring out if you can take a certain enemy. Some knowledge or insight checks might convince the DM to give you some intel, but it's rarely gonna forecast the outcome of the fight. And 4e fights are often properly engineered so that the party is at the brink of losing, sometimes several times, before finally winning a fight. This is intentional: PCs have fewer HP than monsters, but many more ways to recover HP. Plus, it makes the fight much more fun.

In addition to the actual description of the monsters (which ought to be somewhat indicative of their roles or capacities), some intel is already coded into the game mechanics:

• When an enemy is bloodied, you've usually inflicted about half its HP in damage.
• Hits and misses will allow players to gauge an enemy's defense.
• Educated players will note that enemies using action points are elites or solos.
• Enemies that drop after being hit only once are probably minions.
• The damage a monster inflicts is somewhat indicative of role and level.
• A monster knowledge check can yield the enemy's origin, type, typical temperament, keywords, resistances and vulnerabilities, as well as "what its powers do."

What kind of information would you be willing to reveal to an inquisitive player, and how or when would you make that information available?

 

[Ferghis]

Oops, I meant to add a poll to this post, but I took longer than 10 minutes, so I couldn't.

I know many DMs that reveal defenses, some early as a policy, some eventually (after several attack rolls) as a convenience.

I know some DMs that will occasionally reveal an enemy or encounter's level, but this is usually just to discuss game or encounter design, and isn't related to player character actions.

I know some DMs who roll their dice openly, allowing players to figure out attack bonuses and damage formula.

I wonder if a DM might tell me an enemy's level or approximate level (e.g. "much higher than yours") at some early point, and what it would take to gain that information.

 

[Blackbrrd]

If the encounter isn't extraordinary, I let the players figure out the challenge rating themselves through hitting and missing and the time it takes to bloody a creature.

If I have thrown in a bad-ass dragon or something, I use some time to describe how threatening the dragon feels, by mentioning size, speed and so forth.

 

[the Jester]

If the encounter isn't extraordinary, I let the players figure out the challenge rating themselves through hitting and missing and the time it takes to bloody a creature.

If I have thrown in a bad-ass dragon or something, I use some time to describe how threatening the dragon feels, by mentioning size, speed and so forth.

This, pretty much exactly. Especially the bit about describing the monsters as tough when they look tough.

If a pc makes a Knowledge check, I'll give them appropriate information- "most iron golems are tough and leak noxious fumes, etc" and once I've even shown a stat block to the player (an artificer trained in Arcana running into a construct). Generally, though, it's hard to tell by looking'

 

[Ferghis]

Especially the bit about describing the monsters as tough when they look tough.

This leads me to the following question: how do I, as a player, tell the (semi-frequent) level+3 enemy from the (very rare) level+5 enemy?

 

[Obryn]

This leads me to the following question: how do I, as a player, tell the (semi-frequent) level+3 enemy from the (very rare) level+5 enemy?

The DM should be dropping cues left and right. You can also take your cues from how often you are hitting and how often they are hitting. Monster knowledge checks also work in a pinch.

-O

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I wonder if a DM might tell me an enemy's level or approximate level (e.g. "much higher than yours") at some early point, and what it would take to gain that information.

I build identifiers into every monster and NPC group I use, so that players can pretty quickly get a sense of threat level. For example, any aberrant with white eyes is a level 1-5 normal. (Or a level 6-10 goon, or a level 11-15 minion.) An aberrant with red eyes is a level 6-10 normal, and so on.

If any of the PCs have Dungeoneering, I tell them "Eye color indicates power." Even without the appropriate knowledge skill though, the players will figure it out pretty quickly after they fight a few aberrants, because I make sure to mention eye colors whenever they encounter one.

 

[GreyICE]

Well in 4E unless you're entirely outmatched you can usually survive a few rounds anyway. So if you're in trouble, that's a good time to start popping dailies.

One of the most inexplicable things I see is when a group spends half their healing surges on an encounter but are like "well we only used one daily!" Unless they're like level 1-4, they've got a whole 9 more dailies - and only a handful of surges to use with them. Maybe they should have blown 2-3 dailies and spent only 1/3rd of their surges?

So basically, don't be afraid to use a Daily at level 5+ simply in order to save surges. Your adventuring day is more likely to be over from lack of surges than from lack of Dailies (encounter powers are still good!)

 

[slobo777]

Well in 4E unless you're entirely outmatched you can usually survive a few rounds anyway. So if you're in trouble, that's a good time to start popping dailies.

One of the most inexplicable things I see is when a group spends half their healing surges on an encounter but are like "well we only used one daily!" Unless they're like level 1-4, they've got a whole 9 more dailies - and only a handful of surges to use with them. Maybe they should have blown 2-3 dailies and spent only 1/3rd of their surges?

So basically, don't be afraid to use a Daily at level 5+ simply in order to save surges. Your adventuring day is more likely to be over from lack of surges than from lack of Dailies (encounter powers are still good!)

Yes, in addition a team of 5 level 9+ has 15 attack dailies, somewhere between 5 and 10 utility dailies, and a bunch of item powers. Generally it's more the point of which attack/form/stance/augmenting or sustainable daily powers would be most effective for the encounter. Also, don't all decide independently to use your best powers at the same time - unless the situation has turned desparate, that is usually too much.

As a DM, with players at top end of Heroic tier at the moment, I expect to see at least a couple of daily powers used in every encounter. In a tough encounter, it's not unusual to see 5 or more used . . .

 

[Unwise]

Personally, I give players lots of information about monsters if they make a decent roll. I will tell the players the appoximate power level, the role of the monster and some of the abilities they could expect it to use.

4e combat is very much a tactical affair and I find that having a certain amount of informaiton is necessary in order for the players to make sensible choices and not to feel that everything is just a chaotic mess. A fight can very much feel that it is left to DM fiat if monsters just keep pulling out wierd and wonderful abilities with little explaination. I do like keeping big surprises, but I like the basics to be knowable.