We are being laughed at. A ranty article purely for debating purposes.

[Morrus]

So you had it bad for being a geek? Try being a geek AND gay in a deeply catholic town in a deeply conservative town within a very conservative family.

I'm sorry for your childhood experiences and I sympathise; but that's not what we're talking about here (I assume) and religion and sexuality are very much subjects not appropriate at EN World.

 

[Leviatham]

Super Pony mentioned how he was kicked and bullied and how his childhood wasn't particularly happy because he was a geek.

I was illustrating that that sort of stuff happens for all sorts of reasons and that we all have it bad. It wasn't an attempt to discuss neither religion nor sexuality, but one to make clear that I understand his position from a perspective of experience.

I don't think I've steered the conversation in that direction either...

 

[Leviatham]

I enjoy most of the geek comedies out there and, despite the OP's opinion, I think they're actually doing us all a service. They're normalizing the presence of geeks and nerds in the mainstream. They're moving from the side oddball character like Urkel to the central characters of the shows.

There's been some discussion in the media watchers lately that have been analyzing the sea change currently going on in the US about gay marriage. For a while it looked like the anti-gay marriage side was steamrollering over gay marriage supporters everywhere, but suddenly there are now, what, 9 states that have legalized it and the military ban on homosexuals is gone. And one factor people have been looking at is the appearance of gay characters and personalities in mainstream television shows. From Jodie Dallas on Soap to Will Truman on Will and Grace and Willow Rosenberg on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Captain Jack and Ianto on Torchwood, and the daily talk show juggernaut that is Ellen DeGeneris, out and about homosexuals are becoming normal elements of the public sphere right before our very eyes. And the same will be/is happening to the geeks of The Guild, Big Bang Theory, Eureka, and Warehouse 13.

I realise the presence of characters help raise awareness and I have acknowledged that there are benefits to it.

Not sure how many of your examples are parallel though. I must admit I don't know quite a few of those. I have never catched Soap and barely ever watched Will and Grace, so I have no opinions on those. I am aware of Ellen DeGeneris, though, again, I am not familiar with her. I know, I'm an European heathen!

Willow, in fact, is the way I would like geeks to be portrayed! She's certainly geeky and she was bullied for being a geek, and dressed in a geeky way, and was a brainy geek...

Willow was a strong role-model and character much before she explored her sexuality in the series. She was treated with respect and, without a doubt, she had her comedic moments when she was clumsy, awkward and all those things that endeared us to her.

Jack Harness has never been a laughable character and his homosexuality is just there. It's not an issue. It's just what it is.

That can't be said about the geekyness of the BBT characters.

 

[Super Pony]

Do you think children at school won't be bullied and name called because BBT is out there? You really think children won't be mocked - and some beaten up - because they wear a Sheldon t-shirt? Or because they wear a geeky t-shirt?

People can behave awfully toward one another. Singling out the reasons is an effort in futility. Those same kids might get harassed or bullied for any number of reasons. I'm not advocating bullying in any way or saying that people should accept being abused as part of "doing it right." If I came off as anything close to that in my previous post I fully apologize for that. No one should ever have a hand laid on them in anger. What I AM saying in this post is that Big Bang Theory t-shirts are just as likely to draw negative attention as wearing any other geek culture shirt. That show doesn't advocate for bullying anymore than Captain Kirk does.

It might be less painful to you, but probably not to them.

That's unnecessary prodding there bub. Let's not start spinning intention or opinions of other people into gruesome shapes. I honestly get sick in the stomach when I hear about people being physically bullied. I wouldn't wish that on another person.

The fact that there are sitcoms that have been well written (and yes, I do believe every series should strive to be as good as Blackadder, even if they can't get that high up) shows that any series could be well written.

This isn't really something that can be debated though. One person's "omg load up my DVR" show is another person's "why would anyone watch this?" I still think it is fine to not like Big Bang Theory, the IT Crowd, The Guild or any other show that doesn't seem to be written well to you or portraying the culture properly to you.

I understand for you being insulted is less painful than being kicked. I just don't understand why we even have to be insulted.

Again, people will act poorly. I'm not suggesting that you need to stand for being insulted. I am saying that people will insult you regardless of what you do in life or what you like or what you watch or what they watch or read or hear. Take it as it comes, and react as you will. But does the fault lie at the feet of the pop cultural entities that supply these new lines of derision? I don't personally think so. I think the problem lies between the insulter and the insultee. Not the subject matter of their negative interaction. I'm a bald dude...people could insult me for being a truly hairless ape...I'm not going to ask that Lex Luther be shown with hair because I tire of the comparison. If the comment bothers me I'll address the source of the comment...not the comment itself. Again, I'm not trying to debase your opinions Leviatham. You've just brought up an interesting topic so I got all chattery in the fingers

At no point I have also said my hobbies should be protected, nor my likes. What I like is for any other hobby and like to be treated with the same level of respect. And vice versa. This is not because I think my hobbies are superior or more righteous, but because we all deserve that level of respect.

What is the metric of that respect though? If you want your hobbies to be seen as having the same worth as another person's obsession with Fantasy Football leagues that won't translate across the board. There will be people that see either thing as a "waste of time." I guess that's more where I was coming from. I wasn't trying to insinuate that you want to be bowed down to like Alice Cooper in Waynes World (though that would be awesome, not gonna lie). My Ivory Tower comment was overly flippant. Like I said...I got chattery

I acknowledged in my OP the good that those series have done by raising awareness and I'm not bemoaning that, but I think expecting better from writers, actors, actresses, producers and entertainers is not something we should shy away from. Is something we should demand.

I'm all for more and better. I'm just not sure we'll agree on whether or not the journey to more and better is just as good as actually being more and better...yeah that confused the cripes out of me too but I'm leaving it there because untangling that comment may either drive people mad or give them super powers.

Cheers mate,

Supes

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I don't believe Blackadder played with stereotypes. It played with caricatures and they weren't stereotypical at all. In fact most of the characters were as far as archetypes as they can go! They might have had some stereotypical traits, but being stereotypes? I doubt that very mucho!

The boss [or prince] has NEVER been the big buffon that knows absolutely nothing? EVERY series of Blackadder deals with the giant THOSE WHO ARE IN POWER ARE BUFFOONS stereotype. I love Blackadder, but man I think you're trying really hard to ignore its adherence to what makes comedy funny.

There are plenty of series that deal with stereotypes and they do respectfully. BBT does not. At all!

I enjoy most of the geek comedies out there and, despite the OP's opinion, I think they're actually doing us all a service. They're normalizing the presence of geeks and nerds in the mainstream. They're moving from the side oddball character like Urkel to the central characters of the shows.

This. How much more respectful of a culture can you be than making them the PROTAGONISTS of the story? They are not the Steve Urkel and Screech sidekicks of shows past. They are who we are there to see evolve. And the charcters have evolved past the starting stereotypes. Something else, besides not being able to say antidisestablishmentarianism, the Prince of Wales never did.

 

[Leviatham]

People can behave awfully toward one another. Singling out the reasons is an effort in futility. Those same kids might get harassed or bullied for any number of reasons. I'm not advocating bullying in any way or saying that people should accept being abused as part of "doing it right." If I came off as anything close to that in my previous post I fully apologize for that. No one should ever have a hand laid on them in anger. What I AM saying in this post is that Big Bang Theory t-shirts are just as likely to draw negative attention as wearing any other geek culture shirt. That show doesn't advocate for bullying anymore than Captain Kirk does.

For me, singling out the reasons is the start of making them disappear. I don't believe we can just duck and hope they'll pass. It's just me.. I'm an activist!

That's unnecessary prodding there bub. Let's not start spinning intention or opinions of other people into gruesome shapes. I honestly get sick in the stomach when I hear about people being physically bullied. I wouldn't wish that on another person.

Apologies if that came the wrong way.

What I meant is that not everyone reacts or feels in the same way towards the same thing. Some people can react to insults much more easily than others, and find them a lot less painful, and my interpretation is that you have a thicker skin for insults, whereas other people might not.

I really wasn't trying to be mean to you or anything.

This isn't really something that can be debated though. One person's "omg load up my DVR" show is another person's "why would anyone watch this?" I still think it is fine to not like Big Bang Theory, the IT Crowd, The Guild or any other show that doesn't seem to be written well to you or portraying the culture properly to you.

To some degree that is correct. It is true that nothing guarantees what will pander to our tastes or not, but it is undeniable that some things are better written than others. Whether you want to have them in your library or not is a different matter altogether!

Again, people will act poorly. I'm not suggesting that you need to stand for being insulted. I am saying that people will insult you regardless of what you do in life or what you like or what you watch or what they watch or read or hear. Take it as it comes, and react as you will. But does the fault lie at the feet of the pop cultural entities that supply these new lines of derision? I don't personally think so. I think the problem lies between the insulter and the insultee. Not the subject matter of their negative interaction. I'm a bald dude...people could insult me for being a truly hairless ape...I'm not going to ask that Lex Luther be shown with hair because I tire of the comparison. If the comment bothers me I'll address the source of the comment...not the comment itself. Again, I'm not trying to debase your opinions Leviatham. You've just brought up an interesting topic so I got all chattery in the fingers

Dude... you got chattery at the fingers? You're talking to the guy who started the thread... imagine how I was!

And I don't think you're trying to debase my opinions or anything, but you've engaged in civilised conversation and I feel the need to reciprocate. I'm polite like that...

True that people will act poorly. There will always be idiots everywhere and we'll never be able to help that one. And you're right that it is regardless of what we read, wear or watch. However...

What is more likely to happen, that you get insulted for wearing a BBT t-shirt, or that you're insulted for looking like Lex Luthor?

What is the metric of that respect though? If you want your hobbies to be seen as having the same worth as another person's obsession with Fantasy Football leagues that won't translate across the board. There will be people that see either thing as a "waste of time." I guess that's more where I was coming from. I wasn't trying to insinuate that you want to be bowed down to like Alice Cooper in Waynes World (though that would be awesome, not gonna lie). My Ivory Tower comment was overly flippant. Like I said...I got chattery

For me the metric of respect is the same metric that hobbies like fishing or football have. Have you seen anyone laughing at someone wearing a baseball shirt? They might get insulting for what shirt they wear, but not because is a baseball one. Baseball has more respect.

Tell people you're going to a sports event and people will think it's normal. Tell them you're going to a wargames or RPG convention and the chances of getting funny looks is higher.

I would like that not to be the case...

I'm all for more and better. I'm just not sure we'll agree on whether or not the journey to more and better is just as good as actually being more and better...yeah that confused the cripes out of me too but I'm leaving it there because untangling that comment may either drive people mad or give them super powers.

Cheers mate,

Supes

The journey is certainly not better tan being more and better. It never is. Ask the feminist movement. They're going through the hell of a journey even to this day.

But is we can make the journey better by adding air conditioning, leather seats and sat-nav to the vehicle... Much nicer journey!

 

[Leviatham]

The boss [or prince] has NEVER been the big buffon that knows absolutely nothing? EVERY series of Blackadder deals with the giant THOSE WHO ARE IN POWER ARE BUFFOONS stereotype. I love Blackadder, but man I think you're trying really hard to ignore its adherence to what makes comedy funny.

OK, granted, they played with stereotyped caricatures. I guess the difference for me is that I've never met any character like those portrayed in Blackadder and I don't relate to any of them. Also I don't see people mocking anyone else because they wear a Blackadder shirt.

Are they at the hight (or low) of the BBT or The Guild Characters? No.

Let's face it, pretty much no comedy series comes close to Blackadder...

This. How much more respectful of a culture can you be than making them the PROTAGONISTS of the story? They are not the Steve Urkel and Screech sidekicks of shows past. They are who we are there to see evolve. And the charcters have evolved past the starting stereotypes. Something else, besides not being able to say antidisestablishmentarianism, the Prince of Wales never did.

To make someone the protagonist of something doesn't show respect, and I think that a few of the BBT characters are too close to Steve Urkel and Screech for comfort.

I have seen this sort of evolution before and it keeps happening. From the portrayal of gay men and women in movies, to the way women are starting to be seen in James Bond movies or action movies. There is a trend that is improving things slowly. It's positive, but it's slow.

With geeks I feel is the same. We've gone from obscurity and mockery to notoriety and mockery. Probably in the future it'll go from notoriety and mockery to just notoriety, and then probably to notoriety and respect.

For now, we don't have that. By any stretch of the imagination!

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

OK, granted, they played with stereotyped caricatures. I guess the difference for me is that I've never met any character like those portrayed in Blackadder

You've never worked in a corporate office then? I see that stereotype bandied on a daily basis. Often we "worker bees" wonder how the company stays afloat with the decisions coming down from the top.

and I don't relate to any of them.

That's why I think you're having a larger problem with BBT. It's OK to mock the upper class, peasants, the French, the military (like Black Adder does), but how dare anyone mock someone you relate to? Please, learn to laugh at yourself. It will save you some rants.

Also I don't see people mocking anyone else because they wear a Blackadder shirt.

Sadly (and I really mean sadly), this is more likely due to obscurity of reference.

Let's face it, pretty much no comedy series comes close to Blackadder...

I'm sorry, as my avatar suggests, I can place Black Adder no higher than sceond.

With geeks I feel is the same. We've gone from obscurity and mockery to notoriety and mockery. Probably in the future it'll go from notoriety and mockery to just notoriety, and then probably to notoriety and respect.

For now, we don't have that. By any stretch of the imagination!

Speak for yourself. I can speak openly about subject matter in a more mainstream view without ridicule than I even have been able to in my life. And those around me respect me. I'm sorry if your experiences haven't macthed my own.

 

[Morrus]

That's why I think you're having a larger problem with BBT. It's OK to mock the upper class, peasants, the French, the military (like Black Adder does), but how dare anyone mock someone you relate to?

Sadly, this is the message I'm receiving here. I'm reliably informed that's not the message being sent, so I'm kinda lost at sea.

Sadly (and I really mean sadly), this is more likely due to obscurity of reference.

Nah, not at all. Leviathan lives here in England. Everybody knows who Blackadder is. Like Doctor Who, it's (a bit older) mainstream stuff.

 

[Leviatham]

You've never worked in a corporate office then? I see that stereotype bandied on a daily basis. Often we "worker bees" wonder how the company stays afloat with the decisions coming down from the top.

I have worked in quite a few industries and in quite a few corporate environments of different sizes and yes, I see stupid people running companies all right... That doesn't mean all stupid people are like those portrayed in Blackadder, or that they are stupid for the same reasons.

There are plenty of stereotypes and archetypes and Blackadder only represents one very small fraction and they are caricatures beyond what one can expect to find in any corporate office. Even in government offices!

Also, despite the fact that they might be representing stereotypes, I doubt very much the characters themselves are that stereotypical.

That's why I think you're having a larger problem with BBT. It's OK to mock the upper class, peasants, the French, the military (like Black Adder does), but how dare anyone mock someone you relate to?

The fact that you say that proves you don't know me at all. How do you know I don't relate to the military? Or to the peasants?You assume too much!

I have no problems with mockery when done in the right way and in a respectful manner. I have no issue with The IT Crowd, The Inbetweeners, Miranda and many others, so your argument is invalid.

Please, learn to laugh at yourself. It will save you some rants.

Wow... patronising! Not cool!

Sadly (and I really mean sadly), this is more likely due to obscurity of reference.

Indeed there is no obscurity whatsoever in the UK about Blackadder. In fact the likelyhood is that the percentage of the population who know Blackadder is much bigger than the percentage that knows BBT.

I'm sorry, as my avatar suggests, I can place Black Adder no higher than sceond.

To each their own. It is a matter of taste.

Speak for yourself. I can speak openly about subject matter in a more mainstream view without ridicule than I even have been able to in my life. And those around me respect me. I'm sorry if your experiences haven't macthed my own.

You might, and I do in many circles, but it is not always so.

Also just because people respects you, it doesn't mean they respect the notion or archetype you associate yourself to.