We don't have the 15 Minute Adventure Day Problem

[Thasmodious]

I think we often overestimate our own experiences, especially in gaming circles. Many of us that have been at it for 28 years, like myself, actually have a fairly narrow view of the overall gaming universe. How many of us have played most of our gaming 'careers' with much of the same group, or the same group for very long periods of time. Most of the gamers we know are part of that extended group. And in that group, a few GMs sort of set the expectation and "educate" the other gamers. If you've played with only 5 DMs over the years and they all know each other and were all influenced by each other, you're likely to see a lot of similarity in playstyle and expectation.

I can say, in my 28 years of gaming, I still play with one of the players I started the hobby with. Only two of the guys in my group now are newer to our circle of gamers, and former gamers, at large, and I've only played under about half a dozen different GMs over those 28 years. I've attended a pair of conventions and been exposed to a bit more varied play there.

Point is, dismissing the discussion on the internet as some "only on the internet" phenomon, when people are talking about their own play experiences, is a bit egocentric of a worldview. There's lot of things that I only learned where tropes or cliches or playstyles through interacting with other gamers on the intrawebs. I didn't know half dragons had become a huge cliche not long after 3e was out. No one in my games ever played one. I made one for an OLG and another player reacted negatively, "not another frakkin half dragon." Or the Drizzt clones, as another example.

The 15 minute day has been a problem in my groups, and one that is a pet peeve of mine. My players know this and would avoid trying to test my patience on over resting, but would push for it when they thought it logical after a tremendous battle. They practiced more resource management, conserving spells where they could, and I exerted some control with time sensitve scenarios, or danger laden areas with no safe harbor for a rest. They know to protect themselves when they do take a rest, with watches, alarm spells, or M. Mansions, whatever. They also know that, in my game world, NPCs and monsters are not idle when the PCs aren't around. So, if after furious fighting, they retreat and regroup, so do the NPCs. So they often weigh the risk of pressing on with the risk of allowing the NPCs respite.

All of those are good tools for controlling the 15 minute day, but it is very nice to not have such a day be a logical conclusion from the structure of the system. Dailies/encounters/at wills are an excellent way to bridge the gap and still allow a 'nova' element to the characters while giving them better resource allocation to extend the adventuring day.

Man, I really am wordy and rambling today, didn't get much sleep and am sitting here jacked on Red Bull. Not a good combination.

 

[Felon]

In both 3rd and 4th edition, my group has always had trouble fitting more than one encounter into a session, and typically we don't keep good track of resource consumption between sessions, so there's generally resting.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But I can see how this style of game would be boring for those who prefer a combat-heavy style of play.

Our group IS combat-heavy. Six encounters in RttToEE isn't taking a siesta!

To give you an example of what I was talking about with our mage-player, we were fighting one of the Doom-Dreamers, and he only cast 3 spells during the entire encounter- 1 of which was a direct damage spells that took down the DD's minions, the other targeted the DD. The rest of the party had to deal with the BBEG himself. The druid cast a Nature's Ally (big shark) into the BBEG's watery environment- almost the only other spell cast in the encounter- and his shark only scored a couple of hits. The DD was taken down largely by force of arms.

That was the 4th encounter of the day, and that mage was still walking around with a 6th level spell after that. Its not that he stopped contributing to the effort after casting the spells, its that he stopped casting spells. Instead of slinging his arcane might around, he got out his dagger and finished off the minions he had disabled.

OTOH, the melee damage dealers were barely walking around. Instead of resting at that point, however, there was a round of healing that got PCs up between 33-60% HP, and we soldiered on.

 

[Allister]

and we know that. so we go on with our 1 magic missile spell wielding wizard, and our 20 hp 10th level fighter, and our out-of-healing cleric, and fight something we should be able to waste at full strength but in our weakened condition has a good chance of wasting us.

as for the "trash mobs" concept, the dm and players in my group all agree to keep things as realistic as we can. in other words, in walking thru the woods, we come upon an orc scouting party of 10 1st level orcs. they will be the same scouting party whether or not we came thru the woods as 15th level characters, or 1st level characters. who our characters are and what level we are does not dictate world events and enemy logic. the world doesnt revolve around our characters. the world exists, and we encounter it, just as anyone else would encounter it if they had chanced upon that scouting party in the woods, regardless of their level or class.

.

Your DM is basicaly "cheating" for you.

There is no way to beat an encounter that required the resources of the spellcasters top level spells AGAIN without the DM cheating. As much as you claim "we fight in a realistic world and don't have auto-scaling challenges", the only way YOUR method works is if the DM is purposely throwing lots of trash mobs or encounters that the DM knows you can complete.


You're fighting TRASH mobs. Logic has nothing to do with it by simply the fact that the outcome is pre-determined even before the 1st swing.

Seriously, a 15th level party coming across a patrol of orcs and you actually "run" the battle?

Your DM doesn't do the obvious thing and say "ok, you defeat this encounter don't bother rolling".

I personally find these anecdotes weird in that just looking at the system itself, there's no way that you wouldn't have the 15 minute day.

Ex: 10th level party consisting of a cleric, rogue, fighter and wizard.

1st encounter of the day where's there a chance of losing on the part of the players WILL require the use of the spellcasters top level slots.

How the hell can you then face the same encounter if said slots are gone?

re: Not present in 1e/2e

Of course it doesn't show up as often in 1e/2e. Mainly because the opposition was scaled FOR melee. AS long as the melee guys were fine (enough HP), there isn't an encounter that only the spellcasters can handle but melee could.

Melee was much stronger with regard to challenges when compared to spellcasting in 1e/2e than 3e.

 

[joethelawyer]

There is no way to beat an encounter that required the resources of the spellcasters top level spells AGAIN without the DM cheating. As much as you claim "we fight in a realistic world and don't have auto-scaling challenges", the only way YOUR method works is if the DM is purposely throwing lots of trash mobs or encounters that the DM knows you can complete.

You're fighting TRASH mobs. Logic has nothing to do with it by simply the fact that the outcome is pre-determined even before the 1st swing.

I personally find these anecdotes weird in that just looking at the system itself, there's no way that you wouldn't have the 15 minute day.

Ex: 10th level party consisting of a cleric, rogue, fighter and wizard.

1st encounter of the day where's there a chance of losing on the part of the players WILL require the use of the spellcasters top level slots.

How the hell can you then face the same encounter if said slots are gone?

all i can say is we do, and yet we do not fight all trash mobs, and we do not have a 15 minute day. nor, apparently, do some other posters here.

to assume that the only way to defeat high CR encounters is with all casters top spell level slots full is a very weird concept to me. the most challenging, by CR level, fight e had was a combat between our group of 13th level guys, and a group of drow, all 15th level, with better gear and magic, not to mention spell resistance. we beat them after some touchy moments, and the highest level spell cast was 3rd. our guys lucked out in the initial initiative rolls.

the other players in my group are skilled players of the game. most are from the old days of 1e where player skill determined outcomes rather than stats and spellslots. maybe thats why we seem to be each describing 2 different worlds of game play.

for example, why do you assume we killed off the 1st level orc scouts? it would be far more effective to misdirect them somehow, so as to have them feed their army misinformation which would help our side in the conflict.

if you look at the encounter as "Oh crap why bother rolling, you suck as a DM, give me a challenge!" you miss out on a lot of creative fun in the game. you know, stuff not covered by the rules.

i dont let the "system" control my style of gameplay, how long i can adventure before i have to rest and memorize, or the fun i have.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

to assume that the only way to defeat high CR encounters is with all casters top spell level slots full is a very weird concept to me.

Agreed, 100%.

That mage I mentioned was 11th level. For him to finish that fight with a 6th level spell meant he didn't use any top level spell slot.

 

[Dragon Snack]

I don't see much of it in my (combat heavy) games (2 separate groups) either. Not that it never happens, it's just very rare.

I do think it comes down to the DM/playstyle though. In my games, the bad guys will regroup if you do, so it's usually better to press on and catch them unaware...

 

[Fifth Element]

in other words, in walking thru the woods, we come upon an orc scouting party of 10 1st level orcs. they will be the same scouting party whether or not we came thru the woods as 15th level characters, or 1st level characters. who our characters are and what level we are does not dictate world events and enemy logic.

So do you also sometimes run into 15th-level monsters when you're 1st level? Is the BBEG sometimes just too powerful for you to bring down?

 

[Zustiur]

Add me to the list of DM's that hasn't encountered this problem.

Allister, I'd argue the opposite. The DM that hand waves the encounter with 4 orcs because it's too easy is the one that's technically cheating. That said, I understand why it would be done, and I don't have a problem with it. Often encounters like that are important though. They give the players a way to judge their abilities and say, 'look how far we've come'. I don't use encounters like that often though.

 

[Starbuck_II]

all i can say is we do, and yet we do not fight all trash mobs, and we do not have a 15 minute day. nor, apparently, do some other posters here.

i dont let the "system" control my style of gameplay, how long i can adventure before i have to rest and memorize, or the fun i have.

Remember you houserules matter here:
1) No Buffs to ability scores
Ability Score Buff Spells: do not exist.[FONT=&quot] So no Con items since those require the buff spells.[/FONT]
So everyone is losing around 10 per level hps at level 20 (since +10 Con isn't that hard assuming starting Con 16)
And this also reduces spells/day and max spell level.

2) [FONT=&quot]Save buff spells: do not exist. No cloaks of resistance so saves stay low[/FONT]

3) [FONT=&quot]Ability Score increasing items: do not exist. As I said an extention of rule 1.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]magic items giving a + to something lke attack or AC are limited to a max benefit depending on player level. [/FONT]

So low attack/AC.

Really, that is reason. You keep everyone's AC low.
With these limitations: how do you even hit a Dragon (they are based on hacing those +X items)?