We got an official leak of One D&D OGL 1.1! Watch Our Discussion And Reactions!

"This licence did not mean what you thought it meant - and what we said it meant in our FAQ - at the time you signed up to it" seems like an argument unlikely to win in court.
Whilst your faith in the US judicial system is extremely touching, much, much, much worse arguments have won in US courts. Particularly those involving IP law. In EU courts? Not so much.

To be fair, many of these terrible arguments got appealed enough to get overturned (though not all of them), but appealing stuff and going up the judicial ladder is, well, it's bloody expensive in the US.
And they are not Microsoft in 1995, so that seems a really bad idea to me.
Interesting you say that given much of the key leadership of Hasbro/WotC is now ex-Microsoft, including the most important positions.

Chris Cocks, for example, who is in charge of Hasbro, was with MS since 1999 until 2016, and whilst you say "1995", the worst MS behaviour was all later than that, and really kept going until fairly recently.

So they kind of are Microsoft at least a little bit.
 

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EpicureanDM

Explorer
I think you've answered your own question (unless I've misunderstood you).

I don't think it's a drafting error. I think it's a deliberate feature of the OGL. It's how it works in a "viral", "genie can't be put back in the bottle" fashion: every licensee in the SRD ecosystem is authorised by licensors (who, unless they are WotC issusing the SRD, are also licensees) to sub-license their OGC to future parties, provided those parties in turn agree to be bound by the terms of the OGL (which includes granting this authority in respect of their OGC).
I think I follow you. But the definition of Use relates to Derivative Material of Open Game Content, not Open Game Content itself. This is where I mostly lose my footing, in the definitions of "Derivative Material" and "Open Game Content". If the OGL's leaning in part on the U.S. Copyright Office's definitions of "derivative works", then the intent might be to allow licensees to only sublicense any Derivative Material (derivative work) that the licensee contributed to the OGC, excluding the OGC material contributed by WotC, i.e. the material in the SRD itself.

The hypothetical that sparked this part of the thread contemplated that an OGL 1.0a licensee could sublicense OGC found in the SRD in perpetuity, provided that the licensee had published SRD-based OGC prior to the "non-authorization" (to use your term) of the OGL 1.0a . That's the scenario I've been asking about, anyway.

Also, I'm not as confident in the integrity of the OGL's drafting. In Section 4, there's a misplaced comma between "Use" and "the Open Game Content." In Section 12, there's a reference to "Open Game Material", a seemingly defined term that isn't actually defined. The definition of "Distribute" includes the word "distribute," which is arguably circular. In Section 9, You are permitted to "distribute" any Open Game Content (not using the defined term), while in Section 10, You are required to include a copy of the OGL in every copy of Open Game Content You Distribute (now using the defined term).
"Sub-licensee" is not, in itself, a particularly technical term. It refers to someone who (i) is licensed in respect of X, and (ii) was so licensed by a party who was also licensed in respect of X and whose licence included an authority to sub-license. It's similar in structure to the concept of a sub-lease.

I would expect the main issues in sub-licensing, in US law, to be ostensible and actual authority of the sub-licensor. In the present context, I think that would be determined mostly if not exclusively by the terms of the OGL. There may be some relevant general principles too.
Although my credibility has been questioned on this point, I am (and was) aware of that.
The effect of (i), as I'm envisaging it, would be to mean that all existing publishers who want to reuse their stuff would have to reissue it under the new licence. Where publisher A's existing stuff is heavily intertwined with publisher B's OGC, that may be tricky. I don't know if WotC would care about the trickiness, and hence do something different from my (i), or not care. The most different thing they could do is try to set up a one-way door, so that everyone can bring everyone's existing OGC under the new licensing regime, but stuff licensed only under the new licence can't go back the other way. To my mind, that might be a bit tricky given the wording of section 9 of the current OGL, but I imagine WotC will be able to retain better drafters than me!
When Publishers A and B are both licensees who have published OGC under OGL 1.0a, this makes sense to me. But what if Publisher B is WotC and the OGC in question is the SRD? This is where the nuances of Derivative Material and Open Game Content lose me, again, along with the particulars of how the Copyright Office defines the rights of original copyright holders versus those held by the authors of derivative works. The community has long held that OGL 1.0 and 1.0a licensees have the right to continue using the SRD (any version published under any prior version of the OGL) and - in the hypothetical I've been referencing - the ability to sublicense SRD content to which WotC holds the copyright. Maybe that's right, but has it ever been tested in court? WotC now seems like it's in the mood to do just that.
Second - and this is moving further from my fields of expertise, but is still something on which I have a modest intuition - I would expect that there is a plausible argument, in US contract and licensing law, that if WotC were to exercise a power of at-will revocation so as to deprive (say) Paizo of the benefits of any licence, then WotC would simultaneously lose its rights to an in-perpetuity royatly-free licence to Paizo's work. Or to put it another way, I doubt that the only tenable construction of the licence terms would be that one party is able to revoke at will while retaining the full benefit, in perpetuity, of the contractual promise made by the other party. (I am not saying that this is knock-down in any sense, only that I would expect there to be a plausible argument here. Of course everything will turn on the details of the drafting of the OGL v 1.1.)
This also matches my intuitions and presents a potential pothole on the road to 6e. The playtest documents released so far for 6e have similarities to Pathfinder's designs and rules. WotC's hired a bunch of Paizo designers to work on 6e, so that's not entirely surprising. Under this theory, Pathfinder could arguably sue WotC for infringement if 6e's final form ends up incorporating elements of Paizo's design in a way that's not sufficiently transformative. I don't think there's a high likelihood of this. But the idea illustrates how the lawyers and executives making decisions about the OGL might not understand what's going on in the actual design of 6e itself.

Maybe they do. After all, they could just say that they're going back to 3e design principles and expressions. You'd still have to do the textual analysis to see if a copyright infringement occurred, but the argument is probably strong enough to take into court.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
I didnt ask whether there’s enough to accept as fact, I just asked who the most credible source was. You could have all extremely incredible people and still say which of those is the most credible.
Fair enough. I was just trying to explain the situation as I understood it without trying to make a judgement. My take is there’s smoke, but I want to see the fire before concluding that things are as bad as it sounds like they will be.

In terms of credibility, it depends on what one wants. If it’s just confirmation that the OGL 1.1 is going to be as bad as it sounds, then I think the creator of the Griffon’s Saddlebag is more credible because he’s just conveying his current situation and how things could change for him. Personally, I think the OP is credible, but given how many of these “WotC is going to kill the OGL” threads we’ve had, I can understand taking a skeptical stance towards their video. I wasn’t aware of @Yora’s video at the time, so the OP was the only source of the alleged changes, and discounting them would again leave no one.

In light of that video, and assuming it was sourced independently, then I feel that enhances the credibility of the OP and others making similar claims. That is not welcome news if true. 🫤
 

Also, I'm not as confident in the integrity of the OGL's drafting. In Section 4, there's a misplaced comma between "Use" and "the Open Game Content." In Section 12, there's a reference to "Open Game Material", a seemingly defined term that isn't actually defined. The definition of "Distribute" includes the word "distribute," which is arguably circular. In Section 9, You are permitted to "distribute" any Open Game Content (not using the defined term), while in Section 10, You are required to include a copy of the OGL in every copy of Open Game Content You Distribute (now using the defined term).
Oh dear. That rather does suggest 1.0a was rather slapped together. Where I work (large corporate law firm), if something final and intended to be seen by thousands of eyes went out looking like that, well, at the very least a trainee would be yelled at, and probably worse.

(We actually have a Word add-in tool which is very effective at picking these specific sorts of error up and preventing it - it would definitely have got the use of an undefined term as if it was defined, and questioned the circular definition of Distribute!)
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Whilst your faith in the US judicial system is extremely touching, much, much, much worse arguments have won in US courts. Particularly those involving IP law. In EU courts? Not so much.

Given your use of "whilst," perhaps it is best not to tell others how the American legal system handles contract and intellectual property issues, in the same manner that the Yanks tend not to tell Magic Circle firms how to cook their fish & chips. ;)
 

Given your use of "whilst," perhaps it is best not to tell others how the American legal system handles contract and intellectual property issues, in the same manner that the Yanks tend not to tell Magic Circle firms how to cook their fish & chips. ;)
I mean, nationalism is fun, but let's be real, whilst IANAL and I'm certainly not an "expert" in any meaningful sense of the word, I do know more about the US legal system (or patchwork of systems) than, say 98% of Americans (probably a little higher than that). Particularly as concerns civil law. Any actual lawyer (such as yourself?) or even probably a paralegal is going to laugh me out of the building, but your typical American-on-the-internet? Come on. I've certainly read plenty of US judgements, if nothing else, from my years as a researcher.

It's not like I'm some superior European from a civil law background! (in the "not common law" sense) (And yes I'm aware Louisiana has a civil-law like legal system, which I will cheerfully admit to being the extent of my knowledge of Louisiana's legal system!)

Also, the Yanks have been telling us "how to cook our fish and chips" for like, 20 years now, in a legal sense! So you absolutely do! The City is absolutely full of American invaders, coming over here, overpaying trainees and giving them unreasonable expectations! Several US law firms have merged with UK ones (indeed a couple of the world's biggest law firms have come out of that), and indeed any City law firm which hasn't, I guarantee you a US law tries to merge with them every few years. The Magic Circle is a bit tragic I admit, but that's what we've got.
 
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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I mean, nationalism is fun, but let's be real, whilst IANAL and I'm certainly not an "expert" in any meaningful sense of the word, I do know more about the US legal system (or patchwork of systems) than, say 98% of Americans (probably a little higher than that). Particularly as concerns civil law. Any actual lawyer (such as yourself?) or even probably a paralegal is going to laugh me out of the building, but your typical American-on-the-internet? Come on. I've certainly read plenty of US judgements, if nothing else, from my years as a researcher.

Also, the Yanks have been telling us "how to cook our fish and chips" for like, 20 years now, in a legal sense! So you absolutely do! The City is absolutely full of American invaders, coming over here, overpaying trainees and giving them unreasonable expectations! Several US law firms have merged with UK ones (indeed a couple of the world's biggest law firms have come out of that), and indeed any City law firm which hasn't, I guarantee you a US law tries to merge with them every few years. The Magic Circle is a bit tragic I admit, but that's what we've got.

Heh. Well, y'all are taking all of our acting jobs! Turnabout is fair play, right?

Seriously, though, there is a vast gulf between the American and English system which makes the vagaries of language usage look minute in comparison, and just small things like the distinctions between state and federal law which are ingrained in any American are often lost on those across the pond- let alone the more peculiar issues that have arisen over time and the distinctions we have from fifty sovereign states.
 

Given your use of "whilst," perhaps it is best not to tell others how the American legal system handles contract and intellectual property issues, in the same manner that the Yanks tend not to tell Magic Circle firms how to cook their fish & chips. ;)

I would say In support of Ruin Explorer’s position that there have been some utterly insane IP cases in the US in recent years (the blurred lines decision being the most famous). Thankfully the Kate Perry decision, which was possibly worse than the Blurred Lines case, was ultimately overturned I believe. I’m no lawyer though (but am American and used to be musician).
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I would say In support of Ruin Explorer’s position that there have been some utterly insane IP cases in the US in recent years (the blurred lines decision being the most famous). Thankfully the Kate Perry decision, which was possibly worse than the Blurred Lines case, was ultimately overturned I believe. I’m no lawyer though (but am American and used to be musician).

Well, without going too far down the rabbit hole (because I don't support the Blurred Line decision), the trouble is that people often don't understand what actually is going on in these various cases. It's like you get the snippet ("Ooh, McDonalds got sued because Coffee is hot!") and lack the foundation to fully appreciate what happened in the case.

Cases go to juries. Juries can make mistakes. A jury in California made the Blurred Lines decision. Now, if you want to read something interesting, read the Ninth Circuit (appellate) decision that upheld the jury decision. Both the majority and the dissent. It might not change your mind about the actual case, but it might give you insight as to why it ended up that way (from a procedural point of view).

ETA- if you really are curious, it's Williams v. Gaye, 885 F. 3d 1150 (9th Cir. 2018).
 

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