D&D 5E We need more spells known

[schnee]

Give metamagic to every spellcasting class, Wizards in particular. (And no, I'm not talking about yet another archetype, the "metamagic school". I'm talking about using metamagic as it was meant: as an overlay on top of all existing casters, at least all "full" casters)

Why do so many want the terrible mistakes of 3.x to be repeated?

75% of the playability of 5e is because of nerfing the utterly godlike 3.x casters into 'reasonably overpowered'.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Does the op really hate martial classes so much that he thinks that caster classes need to over shadow them even more?

How does trying to balance one spellcasting class against other spellcasting classes have anything to do with martial classes? These are disparities worth exploring that have nothing to do with spellcasting versus martial.

Additionally, he brings up the point that paladins and ranger's are both half casters, yet there is a huge gap in the number of spells they can know/prepare.

This pretty much puts the Sorcerer on par with most noncaster classes.

Which I think says more about the ridiculous amount of versatility and options casters get.

No, it doesn't, it cripples them. Most non-caster classes have access to abilities that refresh on a short rest. The sorcerer doesn't. Once they are out of spells, they are squishy sacks of flesh with nothing left until 8 hours of sleep, whereas a Fighter or Monk take a short rest and they are basically back at full strength.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

The Wild Mage needs basic support in the form of a couple of new spells that are highly random for everybody except the Wild Mage who can control them.

Control them? Where's the fun in that??

 

[CapnZapp]

Why do so many want the terrible mistakes of 3.x to be repeated?

75% of the playability of 5e is because of nerfing the utterly godlike 3.x casters into 'reasonably overpowered'.

And you believe access to 5e metamagic is a "terrible mistake" transforming casters into "utterly godlike"?

Please. That's utterly godlike levels of hyperbole.



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[Xeviat]

Does the op really hate martial classes so much that he thinks that caster classes need to over shadow them even more?

Working on the non-casters is a separate project from he casters. But, considering that noncasters are less than 1/3rd of the game, and that I'm really only looking at 2 of the 8 caster classes (ranger and Sorcerer), I'm not overly concerned about making the casters overshadow the noncasters.


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[Xeviat]

And you believe access to 5e metamagic is a "terrible mistake" transforming casters into "utterly godlike"?

Please. That's utterly godlike levels of hyperbole.



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This is a separate thing, but I was thinking yesterday about what would happen if you made metamagic into feats again and has it cost higher level spell slots. We almost have some things (like twin) in some of the upcasting.


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[Tony Vargas]

Does the op really hate martial classes so much that he thinks that caster classes need to over shadow them even more?

Xeviat has never shown that inclination that I've noticed.

However, when trying to balance similar classes, the path of least resistance is generally to power up the ones at the bottom of the heap. When comparing full casters, that's probably the Sorcerer. That there are other, dissimilar classes, that are just going to be left further behind by such a power-up isn't exactly relevant to the goal of balancing the first set of classes.

It's actually worse than that, because some of the ideas floated are to power-up both the wizard and sorcerer or power up all the casters!

Why do so many want the terrible mistakes of 3.x to be repeated?

75% of the playability of 5e is because of nerfing the utterly godlike 3.x casters into 'reasonably overpowered'.

I think you answered your own question. ;P

Seriously, though, picking back up some of the things 3.5 did 'right' might be an idea. Make prepped casters Vancian again, needing to prep their spells in slots instead of casting spontaneously. Spontaneous casting because a real advantage of the Sorcerer again. It might not close the gap entirely, but it could at least narrow it, without powering anyone up.

Some other things that might be worth bringing back: AoOs for casting in melee, allow ranged attacks to interrupt casting (perhaps as a Reaction), random starting spells, wizards needing to find spells to add to their book rather than just learning them automatically as they level, save DCs based on slot level rather than caster level, proficiency applying to more saves, % magic resistance, etc...

But powering-up Sorcerers (and Bards! really?) seems unnecessary.

And giving away the one unique toy 5e Sorcerers got to all casters? Seriously?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Control them? Where's the fun in that??

To be fair, it is traditional. When the Wild Mage was first introduced, in the Tome of Magic, one of its most exciting powers was its ability to control randomness: both of wild magic spells (using suitable metamagics), and also of magic items including the Wand of Wonder and the Deck of Many Things. I believe they had a 50% chance to actively choose which card a Deck of Many Things would yield. If you think about this, that means a Deck of Many Things + Wild Mage = instant virtual godhood.

 

[bganon]

You can't be serious. Do you know how many spells a 1st level Sorcerer know? Two. Freaking Two, and they only get 1 spell every time they level up. You can't call yourself a sorcerer if you reduce it further. Because you'd be a pony. A one-trick pony.

And 4 cantrips, and IMO Sorcerous Origin should offer a cantrip powerup or cantrip-like class feature that can use Sorcery points (which should be a short-rest resource). Besides, it's not the 2 spells known at level 1 that's too many, it's later on (like 10 at level 9, etc).

I know opinions of 4E vary, but later on they introduced an Elementalist variant of the Sorcerer which I rather liked the idea of. They only ever really "knew" maybe 7-9 spells (depending on how you count), but their bread and butter was having 2-3 at-wills that could be enhanced quite nicely with per-encounter resources, so that other "spells known" could focus on speciality niches and there was no need to have too many.

I mean, how many truly different spells does a sorcerer-type really need?

1) Targeted (usually single-target) direct damage
2) Area blasting
3) Targeted status effect
4) Area debuff
5) Personal buff
6) Zoning ("control")
7) Exploration-related
8) Skill/social-related?

That covers an awful lot, and a good metamagic system could probably let you get #1+#2 and #3+#4 out of two individual spells. So that's 6 good spells, add a few more as backups in case of resistance/immunities (but metamagic should have ways to help with that), and 9 spells known really should be plenty.

 

[Pickaxe]

I'm wondering if the difference in spells known/prepared for these two kinds of full casters is explained by the fact that one group has ritual casting and the other doesn't. This would make sense if the marginal utility of an extra spell prepared drops significantly after a certain point, such that there is a point where that next spell prepared is highly unlikely to be used in a spell slot. Extra ritual spells prepared, on the other hand, could be used quite a bit. An important question here (which I think is at the heart of Hemlock's earlier point) is whether the difference in spells known makes a big difference in performance, particularly to how a class uses its spell slots. If it's pretty much a lock that I will blow my 3 third level slots on fireballs, flies, and hastes, then that fourth or fifth spell known for that level is not really a difference maker--except perhaps if I can cast it as a ritual.

I don't have any experience with 5e sorcerers at high levels, but I can't say I was disappointed with play at low and mid levels. A draconic sorcerer essentially gets free mage armor and the equivalent of d8 hit die for hit points per level, plus some nice features that are generally no worse, if not better, than arcane tradition features. Plus they can quicken and twin spells. Perhaps these benefits tail off in utility at higher levels. For instance, I never played a sorcerer at those levels where you don't even get another spell known.

--Axe


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