D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws

[MoutonRustique]

It's a small immobile area and is a Concentration spell. It looks not too bad to counter; much easier than the 3rd edition version in many ways.

It is a 2nd level spell (plenty of castings possible) and can be cast as a reaction (i.e. the lich casts a spell, I auto-counter).

Things don't need to be shut down for 10 rounds - 2 or 3 rounds is plenty to make a creature "impotent" and 2 or 3 2nd level slots seems a small price to pay for a high level cleric to completely shut down the ancient-arch-mage-of-ultra-doom-and-death (or AAMoUDaD for short).

I'm not saying it is absolutely w/o any counters, but I can't help but feel this lone spell forces a great deal of things...

 

[Nagol]

It is a 2nd level spell (plenty of castings possible) and can be cast as a reaction (i.e. the lich casts a spell, I auto-counter).

Things don't need to be shut down for 10 rounds - 2 or 3 rounds is plenty to make a creature "impotent" and 2 or 3 2nd level slots seems a small price to pay for a high level cleric to completely shut down the ancient-arch-mage-of-ultra-doom-and-death (or AAMoUDaD for short).

I'm not saying it is absolutely w/o any counters, but I can't help but feel this lone spell forces a great deal of things...

I do not believe you can cast it as a reaction -- contrast Silence's casting time with Shield for an example of a spell that is cast as a reaction.

Now you can decide to ready it, but readying sucks. You lose your action, use the spell slot, and the spell is lost by your next action if you didn't use it.

 

[Essenti]

You lose your action, use the spell slot, and the spell is lost by your next action if you didn't use it.

I am unable to find where, in the basic rules, that it specifies that a readied spell is lost if unused by your next turn... So far as I can tell, so long as you successfully concentrate on holding back the spell, it remains as a possible reaction for you to use. If this is called out in the rules, can you tell me where? Thanks!

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I am unable to find where, in the basic rules, that it specifies that a readied spell is lost if unused by your next turn... So far as I can tell, so long as you successfully concentrate on holding back the spell, it remains as a possible reaction for you to use. If this is called out in the rules, can you tell me where? Thanks!

Hmm... It is rather vague in the rules now. The playtest was clear that if you had not yet taken your readied action by the start of your next turn, you lost it. In the current incarnation it only says "you can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your reaction."

That would make sense as supporting the playtest version, but it doesn't clearly say that if you don't take the readied action you lose it. With the current fuzzy phrasing, I'd probably actually rule that if you take the Ready action immediately at the start of your subsequent turns you can keep your spell readied.

Sounds like something to bring up for an eventual FAQ.

 

[Essenti]

With the current fuzzy phrasing, I'd probably actually rule that if you take the Ready action immediately at the start of your subsequent turns you can keep your spell readied.

Sounds like something to bring up for an eventual FAQ.

Requiring the caster to ready the spell every turn doesn't seem logical to me. They readied the spell by casting it (and expending a spell slot) with a clearly stated trigger, and now they must use their single concentration "slot" to hold the spell in a readied "reaction" state. The spell is effectively wasted if the trigger never happens, the caster fails a concentration check, casts another spell using concentration, or if they have no reaction when the trigger happens (yes, shield, I'm looking at you). Concentration rules already limit what the caster can do while concentrating on a spell. I see no reason in the rules or otherwise to tack on more limitations for a readied spell.

And... back on topic... I was initially concerned about the non-proficient saving throw weakness when I first read through the rules... However, the more I play the game, the more I appreciate the elegance of the concentration mechanic in 5e. Concentration is a wonderful limiting mechanic to bring casters back down to the same playing field as the martial classes. This is one of my favorite mechanics in the new rules.

 

[ccooke]

Casting multiple spells simultaneously! (not really)

Requiring the caster to ready the spell every turn doesn't seem logical to me. They readied the spell by casting it (and expending a spell slot) with a clearly stated trigger, and now they must use their single concentration "slot" to hold the spell in a readied "reaction" state. The spell is effectively wasted if the trigger never happens, the caster fails a concentration check, casts another spell using concentration, or if they have no reaction when the trigger happens (yes, shield, I'm looking at you). Concentration rules already limit what the caster can do while concentrating on a spell. I see no reason in the rules or otherwise to tack on more limitations for a readied spell.

And... back on topic... I was initially concerned about the non-proficient saving throw weakness when I first read through the rules... However, the more I play the game, the more I appreciate the elegance of the concentration mechanic in 5e. Concentration is a wonderful limiting mechanic to bring casters back down to the same playing field as the martial classes. This is one of my favorite mechanics in the new rules.

Hmm.

That makes me think of something that seems to work under the rules:

Readying a spell requires concentration. Once you have done so, the spell is in one of your hands, held so that it is not cast. You can trigger the spell with a reaction based on the trigger you previously specified. I'd rule that you can also release the spell by using your action, on your turn. Because anything else wouldn't make sense.

So, you're now using your Concentration on the spell in one of your hands. As long as you continue concentrating (I think the maximum is always ten minutes), you're holding that spell.

So what stops you, next round, from casting a new spell?

If the new spell required concentration, then you lose the readied spell. You also can't cast it at all if you're holding something in both hands - so if the previous spell is in one hand, you'd have to drop or stow whatever is in the other. However, as long as you maintain concentration on the readied spell, it would still be there.

You would, by the rules, lose your readied trigger unless you spent an action on your turn to ready the trigger again. You also still couldn't release the readied spell and cast a (non bonus action) spell on your turn (the rules only state that you can use a reaction to trigger the readied spell; it makes sense that you could use your action, instead. However, there's no rules support for it being less than a reaction or action). You could cancel the readied spell for free, though.

Basically, this is an interpretation of the rules that doesn't would make for some really thematic roleplay, doesn't seem to be contradicted by any of the rules and doesn't actually break any of the assumptions of power.

Thoughts?

 

[Nagol]

I am unable to find where, in the basic rules, that it specifies that a readied spell is lost if unused by your next turn... So far as I can tell, so long as you successfully concentrate on holding back the spell, it remains as a possible reaction for you to use. If this is called out in the rules, can you tell me where? Thanks!

I fail to see in the rules any mechanism for a Ready to extend past the current round. You use Ready to act later in the round.

 

[jadrax]

Yeah, by the rules in the Ready Section.

You may only cast the Spell later in the same Round.

You don't lose the spell if unless you lose Concentration.

So theoretically, you can have the Spell ready for hours without it technically dissipating, but you still cannot actually cast it in that state as you have gone beyond the same Round maximum.

 

[Tony Vargas]

No, I agree. It looks like a slightly less severe version of 3e's save disparities. But still, yes, it appears they didn't learn from previous editions' mistakes.

A 20th level Wizard will have a save DC of 19. Even with Advantage, that's a hard target to hit with a +0 (or god forbid - 1) stat modifier. So Hold Person, even if it allows saves every round, will be an encounter ender vs. Fighters and other beefy targets.

Nod. And it's not just the PvP problem that implies. There'll be monsters, like Liches, that act very much like PCs in some ways (like casting). DCs could easily go up to 19 on their saves.

Adventurers, by their nature, face all sorts of dangers. The idea that any save is outside the experience of an adventuring class and thus never improves is not a great one.

I'd suggest a simple house-rule (since this edition is at least meant to be open to such fixes):

All classes gain proficiency in all saves, all the time, no exceptions.

Alternately, in case 5e's tenuous web of class balance depends on a class having more save proficiencies than usual, Proficient saves get the initial +2, but all saves improve as you level up. So, proficient saves +2 at first, +6 at top-level, non-proficient, +0 at first, +4 at top level.

 

[Essenti]

I fail to see in the rules any mechanism for a Ready to extend past the current round. You use Ready to act later in the round.

Okay, good! That means that YOU are CHOOSING to read the rules that way. Which is great for you and great for me too.

The ready rules break out into a second paragraph that describe how readying a spell works, and the limitation appears to be concentration. I choose to read it as a specific rule overriding the general. But you can read it your way...