Weapliment Expertise?

[Kinneus]

I remember hearing somewhere that they were going to come out with an Expertise feat for people that use weapons as implements. I believe it was supposed to come out in Dragon.

Has it? Is it any good? Can my poor Swordmage finally stop sucking at the bitter teat of Versatile Expertise?

 

[Grydan]

The article hasn't arrived yet.

It's on the table of contents for the current issue of Dragon, but hasn't shown up on the Content Calendar yet. In theory it should be out next week.

 

[wlmartin]

I remember hearing somewhere that they were going to come out with an Expertise feat for people that use weapons as implements. I believe it was supposed to come out in Dragon.

Has it? Is it any good? Can my poor Swordmage finally stop sucking at the bitter teat of Versatile Expertise?

I saw this new post and chuckled thinking someone with very broken english was asking a question about Weapon Expertise, Weapliment is my new favorite word for the day.

 

[Grydan]

The article (Playtest: Tools of Two Trades, DDI exclusive) is up now. There's not a blanket "Weapliment Expertise" feat, but rather a selection of them.

Some of them apply to rather specific combinations, others are a bit broader in their coverage.

There are indeed two options that work for Swordmages to choose from.

The catch of course, being that the article is a Playtest one, rather than one in which everything is considered official right off the bat.

 

[Larrin]

for the most part i was a little underwhelmed, the 'rider' powers were often complete 'meh' or 'well that will onlybe useful once per campaign'. For example, there is a feat where if you're using a holy symbol, a weapon and a shield, when you make an attack your shield bonus to reflex goes up 1. (also your holy symbol and weapon get the usual expertise bonus) How often will this help? Another lets you get an expertise bonus to maces and rods, and lets rods count as clubs. Am I forgetting a class that actually wants to have a rod and hit people with it too? I guess your warlock could eldritch strike with it, or an invoker could get melee training wis, but really....


I don't know, i just felt that too many of them were so situational that they felt forced, and thus weren't much better than versatile expertise. Maybe if i read it again i'll feel better.


edit: nope, didn't help.

 

[Atras]

For example, there is a feat where if you're using a holy symbol, a weapon and a shield, when you make an attack your shield bonus to reflex goes up 1. (also your holy symbol and weapon get the usual expertise bonus) How often will this help?

Are you serious? Players Handbook 1 has the Paladin, a class that uses Holy Symbols, Weapons, and can use Shields. They frequently have terrible Reflex defenses, unless using the Shield, and they will most often be using weapon attacks, boosting their worst defense essentially every turn. This is a really, really good feat to take as a replacement for Versatile Expertise.

 

[garyh]

Are you serious? Players Handbook 1 has the Paladin, a class that uses Holy Symbols, Weapons, and can use Shields. They frequently have terrible Reflex defenses, unless using the Shield, and they will most often be using weapon attacks, boosting their worst defense essentially every turn. This is a really, really good feat to take as a replacement for Versatile Expertise.

Except that this new feat only applies to weapon attacks with weapons and implement attacks with holy symbols, so if you use a weapliment (like the Vigilant Longsword a paladin of mine uses), it doesn't apply to implement attacks with the weapon.

 

[Atras]

Except that this new feat only applies to weapon attacks with weapons and implement attacks with holy symbols, so if you use a weapliment (like the Vigilant Longsword a paladin of mine uses), it doesn't apply to implement attacks with the weapon.

So you have a work-around in place to let you get both of your types of attack with one tool, and then you are upset when the feat doesn't address your work-around? That doesn't make sense - the feat is for a more default set-up. Seeing that this article is a playtest, some feedback saying that it should boost the Shield bonus to Reflex with any weapon or implement attack might be in order, but I think this is the strongest feat in the bunch.

 

[Larrin]

Are you serious? Players Handbook 1 has the Paladin, a class that uses Holy Symbols, Weapons, and can use Shields. They frequently have terrible Reflex defenses, unless using the Shield, and they will most often be using weapon attacks, boosting their worst defense essentially every turn. This is a really, really good feat to take as a replacement for Versatile Expertise.

I am serious. I know what you're saying, and its true, BUT boosting your reflex by one is only going to usefully when you're attacking a monster that attacks reflex. The reason that paladins and clerics (and some fighters and etc.) get away with such abysmal reflex scores is because this is not the norm. Most attacks are against AC, and then its almost an even split between fort/ref/will. So IF you're up against a reflex attacking monster, it'll make you feel a little better, but a majority of the time, and some entire battles, _I_ would feel like its not doing anything for me. It is of course better then versatile expertise, but only if you fit the specific requirements. (And if you ever drop your shield, you actually lose your expertise benefits X-P ).

Compare to the benefits of the single object expertise, and for most of them you find yourself using them/benefiting from them every battle, or at least in control of when they are useful (like the ones that enhance pushes). This article had a couple of such, but alot were just weak (In my opinion) OR really really (at times disturbingly) specific about what you have to be weilding in order to qualify for these feats. To that i say 'meh' and possibly 'derp?'.

 

[mneme]

So you have a work-around in place to let you get both of your types of attack with one tool, and then you are upset when the feat doesn't address your work-around? That doesn't make sense - the feat is for a more default set-up. Seeing that this article is a playtest, some feedback saying that it should boost the Shield bonus to Reflex with any weapon or implement attack might be in order, but I think this is the strongest feat in the bunch.

It's more that there's a substantial game-supported archetype (divine caster who uses weapons that can be used as implements) that isn't supported by -any- of the in-playtest feats.

I actually wrote up a long letter (which took far too long to compile) going through all the mixed implement/mixed weapon/implement archetypes to try to identify holes like this (as well as archetypes that are only supported by feats with riders that are nearly useless to that archetype -- like Avengers who gain "don't draw OAs on ranged/area attacks").