Weapon and Armor categories and training in them. Do we still need them?

Horwath

Hero
Right now we still have weapon(simple and martial) and armor(light, medium, heavy) categories.

Did they outlived their purpose? And can we just get rid of them?

Weapons are no brainer.
Just have all weapons on martial level(with some buff to non-finesse weapons) and have all be proficient in all weapons.
In the end we are talking about 1 point of damage difference mostly.

Just taking up space in class description.
And making some clumsy racial bonuses, that will be traded away in following books if not needed(Tasha 2.0).

Most of the "martial" power comes from class features as Extra attack(s), fighting styles, attack riders(sneak attack, smites, maneuvers, rage, etc...) and investments in strength or dexterity.

and the martial/simple weapon split is also mostly arbitrary with no logic at all:
Shortbow is simple yet longbow is martial? It's more or less the same weapon.
Same with crossbows.

Mace is simple and mornigstar is martial.

And how that the dagger is simple and shortsword is martial. You can throw the dagger but you cannot throw a shortsword. Should it not be more difficult to learn both stabbing and throwing than only stabbing?

Same with light hammer and warhammer or handaxe and battleaxe.

whole table looks as someone stuffed mouthful of weapon plates and sneezed them on a table.


Whole table needs to be cleared a little and made more standardized.

If we have finesse, light, reach and thrown properties, we should know how much they cost(cost is measured mostly in reduced damage die).
Now we see that each property costs more or less one step in damage die.
Versatile is next to useless so we will tack on versatile on and 1Handed weapon without finesse, light or thrown property.

Then we have:

DAMAGEPROPERTIESEXAMPLE
d10V(d12)longsword, battleaxe, warhammer
d8V(d10), ReachSpear
d8Finesserapier
d8Lightarming sword, handaxe
d8ThrownJavelin
d6Finesse, Lightshortsword, scimitar
d6Finesse, Reachwhip
d6Finesse, Thrownchakram
d6Light, Thrownthrowingaxe, light hammer
d4Finesse, Light, Reachthrowing knife
2d82Handed, HeavyGreatsword, maul, greataxe
2d62Handedclaymore, waraxe,
2d62Handed, Heavy, Reachpoleaxe, pike, halberd
d122Handed, Finessefalchion
d122Handed, Reachlongspear
d102Handed, Finesse, Reachspiked chain

Reach weapons are standardized and little buffed to 40/120ft range.

short/long bows, work fine now. Maybe buff the shortbow range to 100/400 for small races to get some love.

Crossbows should get Action loading time, more cost, more weight, maybe shorter range a little and higher damage dice:

NAMEDAMAGEPROPERTIESCOSTWEIGHT
Light crossbow2d62Handed, Range 60/240, Loading; Action75 GP15lb
Heavy crossbow2d82Handed, Heavy, Range 80/320, Loading; Action100 GP20lb
Hand crossbow1d8Light, Range 40/120, Loading; Bonus action75 GP3lb
Crossbow expert feat could reduce loading time to: Action->Bonus action and Bonus Action->Free.


Now, as for armor:

We already have good tool for armor to lose proficiency categories.
Min STR. Just expand on it and make it work for all armor.

Also return variable max dex for all armors. That way, more armors will be a desirable goal, depending on users dexterity.

ARMORMIN STRACMAX DEXPENALTY
padded8116
leather10126
studded leather12135
hide14144
chainshirt14153stealth
chain mail16162stealth
half plate18171stealth
full plate20180stealth
Buckler/light shield10+15
shield14+23
heavy shield/tower18+31stealth, acrobatics, -5ft speed

Penalty for not having sufficient strength would be:

Half speed,
disadvantage on all attack rolls.
disadvantage on all str, dex and con checks and saves.
enemies automatically succeed on all saves vs. your spells.
cannot concentrate on spells.

preventing all spells could be too much of a penalty if suddenly you were str drained by some effect.
This leaves option of some utility spells or just "I misty step without my full plate".
Then you are free to cast spells again, but with -8 AC and maybe a stolen full plate.
Or, I'll crawl around the battlefield and just heal.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I personally give my players proficiency in all equipment, but each weapon/armor has some STR requirement. So yeah, if your wizard wants to pump 15 points into STR to wear heavy armors and a maul, good for him.

its not like having a fullcaster wearing a full plate will break anything, we already have the cleric as a class.
 



I think that prof in weapons and armor should just be up to players.

"My fighter is a quick gun slinger he doesn't know how to use a great axe or a full suit of chain"
"My wizard was a lumber jack that great axe is easy for him"
 

ehren37

Legend
Are you advocating for every class to have equal access to all weapons, just efficacy tied to strength? If so, here's an honest, made-in-good-faith question: Why not give every class spells, then, as well?
Funny how that never goes the other way. My fighter is trained in arcana, why cant they cast spells again?

Really fighter types should get at will weapon attacks and defensive reaction maneuvers to differentiate their level of training beyond "able to wear/wield without penalty" but sadly that was deemed too complicated for our dumb fighter player brains.
 

Funny how that never goes the other way. My fighter is trained in arcana, why cant they cast spells again?

Really fighter types should get at will weapon attacks and defensive reaction maneuvers to differentiate their level of training beyond "able to wear/wield without penalty" but sadly that was deemed too complicated for our dumb fighter player brains.
yeah you could make 4 basic attacks like cantrips and let them choose 2... then you can have 4 sr/encounter ones and let them choose 1 and a daily ability too... and every few levels they can get more sr/encounter or more dailies...
 




Sacrosanct

Legend
Publisher
Funny how that never goes the other way. My fighter is trained in arcana, why cant they cast spells again?

Really fighter types should get at will weapon attacks and defensive reaction maneuvers to differentiate their level of training beyond "able to wear/wield without penalty" but sadly that was deemed too complicated for our dumb fighter player brains.
Is it even possible for you to comment on this topic without insulting other people? I ask, because you've been doing it for years. It gets old.
 

Horwath

Hero
If all classes have all weapons and armor, the only difference will be feats for melee and spells for casters. I think that becomes boring very fast.
Well, difference is in larger HD, extra attack(s), fighting styles, attack riders, choice of feats, investment in STR/DEX.

And it will cut down on the cheese: 1st level fighter, then wizard X
 



Horwath

Hero
I'm hoping for them to make a return in later editions with weapon choice mattering to how your character fights.
that is now tied to feats mostly.

crusher/piercer/slasher/GWM/PAM/SS/CE/defensive duelist determine how you fight.
add a fighting style for good measure and you have your 5E description how you fight.
 

W'rkncacnter

Adventurer
And it will cut down on the cheese: 1st level fighter, then wizard X
that's not "cutting down on the cheese" - it's giving up entirely and just integrating the cheese directly into the core rules. which, i mean, if you don't care about that then ok, but that is what it is.

and honestly i think you could get away with doing the exact opposite (if you wanted to change this at all) - split weapons into categories based on what they are instead of the level of training needed to use them (e.g. swords, axes, polearms (edit - actually maybe spears instead, and make 'polearm' a property that triggers feats like polearm master? or maybe just classify 'polearms' as a weapon of any category that has reach? either i think would be more useful then a polearm category since, for example, poleaxes are both polearms and axes), hammers, picks, bows, crossbows, etc.), maybe add a "simple" trait for weapons any character can use proficiently (like clubs), and then give classes proficiencies based on that (e.g. rogues get swords and short weapons, bards only get swords, barbarians get axes, hammers, and swords, rangers get swords, bows, and crossbows, fighters pick any 3 or 4 categories, etc.). makes it easier to assign proficiencies to classes and gives each class more character in what weapon proficiencies they get since it's more specific. of course, that doesn't matter if the weapons are as samey as they are in 5e anyway, but that's another (and i think the actual) issue. also,
yeah you could make 4 basic attacks like cantrips and let them choose 2... then you can have 4 sr/encounter ones and let them choose 1 and a daily ability too... and every few levels they can get more sr/encounter or more dailies...
4th Edition strikes again!
 
Last edited:

If anything, I want more weapon and armor categories. And required proficiency to match them.

Gimme modified crit ranges and crit effects, weapon bonuses to trip/disarm/defend, and exotic weapons. Gimme armor that can provide bonuses to stability, movement, or combat that's based on skill instead of magic. Maybe even build in synergies between weapons, shields and armors. And always, always, make there be a cost to use them.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
If anything, I want more weapon and armor categories. And required proficiency to match them.

Gimme modified crit ranges and crit effects, weapon bonuses to trip/disarm/defend, and exotic weapons. Gimme armor that can provide bonuses to stability, movement,
Preach it.
or combat that's based on skill instead of magic.
Not sure what this would look like.
Maybe even build in synergies between weapons, shields and armors.
Hadn't considered this. Please elaborate.
And always, always, make there be a cost to use them.
Er... not sure if want.
 

I have no horse in the race, but I will point out that it would be a great opportunity to finally kill "studded leather armor," which was never a thing. Add in what they thought they were describing under its proper name and give it the appropriate attributes. :p
I would rather "reenforced leather jacket" take it's spot... if we are making things up we need to make it cooler
 


Dungeon Delver's Guide

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top