Weapon and Implement Expertise

[jeffh]

I've seen a few discussions of this topic, but I'm not sure if there's a consensus so let's see how ENWorld as a whole really feels about it. Are the Weapon and Implement Expertise feats:

• Needed in order for attacks to keep up with defenses, and so something that would be more appropriate as a rule change than a feat?
• Not needed for this purpose, and furthemore, obviously better than most other feats to such an extent that they're too good?
• Balanced feats which do no harm to the game simply co-existing with the other feats as they do in the RAW?

Feel free to justify your answer or reference previous discussions you think are particularly useful.

EDIT: Regarding Versatile Expertise, either read the question as asking about that as well, or (particularly for the last two options, not that I expect them to be popular) assume it is going to be disallowed no matter what. Don't choose option 4 JUST on the grounds that Versatile Expertise exists.

 

[DracoSuave]

A can of worms will be opened here.


However I'll add in a fourth option for you:

2 Feats both rendered obsolete by Versatile Expertise.

 

[Amaroq]

I think that's an answer that varies from DM to DM, to be honest.

In our group, one DM allows them, while the other DM does not (but reduces monster defenses appropriately.)

The best argument against them that I've heard is not that they're so good that they're so obviously better than every other feat out there that everybody takes them at Level 1, but more along the lines of "they're good enough that every character wants to take them by about Level 15 to get the +2; therefore, let's give 'em to every character or prohibit them to encourage players to invest more in feats which differentiate the character from every other character."

That kind of hearkens back to a "feats should feel special" or "feats should differentiate my character somehow" philosophy: personally, I want feats to make characters feel awesome, unique, and different, and simple "hits more often", "does more damage", and "has more hit points" feats don't do that for me.

 

[jeffh]

Poll is now up.

The specific rule change I was thinking of was: Everyone gets 2 Weapon Expertise feats, 2 Implement Expertise feats, or one of each (EDIT: or now that I'm aware of its existence, I may change that to simply one Versatile Expertise feat) for free at 5th level. They remain available as feats that can be taken the normal way, but with a new prerequisite of 6th level (EDIT: again, including VE if available at all).

 

[DracoSuave]

Versatile Expertise does that already, and better.

Seriously, post PHB3, there should be no discussion about those two feats.

 

[IanB]

One thing I've been pondering is making them paragon feats, that go from +1 at paragon to +2 at epic. It tones them down slightly in comparison to other feats and it leaves more space in the heroic tier for people to play around with other stuff.

 

[Talysian]

I've tried both giving them for free and Banning them and simply correcting the monsters myself. And now i'm to Correcting the monsters myself and allowing them to be taken. I correct the monsters, and if a character is having problems hitting, and they want to take it great, if not I know most of my current players won't waste a feat for them.

 

[babinro]

I give them out for free as I've never seen a PC without the feat so far in 4E. Not everyone takes the feat immediately, but by paragon tier every build I've seen has it.

I don't think the system requires it to run properly. There are tons of instances where bonuses can be given out to players. I'm also of the mind that PC's focused on reflex and will attacks don't 'need' the feats at all to keep up with most encounters.

Having said that, I like simply opening up further feat options by giving it away for free for all characters. It is a practice I intend to continue for all future 4E games I DM.

 

[holywhitetrash]

i agree with dracosuave
these feats are garbage now and there is no reason to ever take them unless you happen to not use the errata

 

[jeffh]

Okay, I don't have the PH3, so assume it's not a factor.

What is this "Versatile Expertise" that everyone's talking about?

If it's just what it sounds like, a version of the feats I'm asking about that works for whatever you want, then it's another example of what I'm asking about, and the dismissive responses from DracoSuave and holywhitetrash rather miss the point of the question.