Weapon and Implement Expertise

[drothgery]

Okay, I don't have the PH3, so assume it's not a factor.

What is this "Versatile Expertise" that everyone's talking about?

Versatile Expertise

Heroic Tier
Benefit: Choose a weapon group and an implement type. You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls both when using a weapon from the chosen group and when using an implement of the chosen type. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th level and +3 at 25th level.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you take this feat, choose a different weapon group and a different implement type.

First published in Player's Handbook 3.

The thing is that most weapons can be used as implements by some class, and it doesn't have the weapon/implement attack restrictions of erratad weapon/implement expertise, so a stereotypical swordmage would take versatile expertise (heavy blades & light blades).

 

[jbear]

I don't think it's a big issue, but I've only played at heroic tier. I like my players to be accurate. More hitting = fast combat, which helps avoid the grind. Also, as more and more cool feats appear but the slots stay the same, I prefer my players to be able to take more interesting flavoursome options.

I don't give it for free as such. I make it an in-story boon that the pcs achieve via a successful major adventure at a price that opens up further story lines.

 

[Hejdun]

Granted I've only played up to level 13, but I haven't noticed a problem yet. I'm deliberately avoiding taking Expertise feats in order to see if I ever notice it.

Based on my experiences so far, I don't really think it's too necessary. Even at just level 13 we're already slapping down defense debuffs, attack buffs, nearly ubiquitous combat advantage, etc that's making hitting a breeze.

My character is a Human Fighter, started with 18 Str, wields a +2 Bastard Sword for a +17 to hit. In a party with a Halfling Rogue, Eladrin Cleric, Human Wizard and Genasi Swordmage.

 

[DracoSuave]

The thing is that most weapons can be used as implements by some class, and it doesn't have the weapon/implement attack restrictions of erratad weapon/implement expertise, so a stereotypical swordmage would take versatile expertise (heavy blades & light blades).

On top of that, many implement types are also weapon groups, so if you're of a class that might find a heavy blade in its hand, even tho you're currently using a hammer or axe, it's still worth taking this feat over Weapon Focus for that reason.

 

[drothgery]

Granted I've only played up to level 13, but I haven't noticed a problem yet. I'm deliberately avoiding taking Expertise feats in order to see if I ever notice it.

Based on my experiences so far, I don't really think it's too necessary. Even at just level 13 we're already slapping down defense debuffs, attack buffs, nearly ubiquitous combat advantage, etc that's making hitting a breeze.

FWIW, Most of the number-crunching types say the Expertise feats aren't a huge deal before level 15 and the bump to +2.

And in my experience with a level 10 swordmage (other characters have been a warforged cleric, drow shaman, tiefling rogue, human barbarian, and a changeling sorcerer), we may have been running into higher-level opponents too often and may be less than great with party synergy, but we miss a lot. Before last session we just houseruled in free Expertise, but there wasn't any combat last week. Still, my swordmage 10 with a bastard sword +3 and a starting 20 Int has a +18 to hit on normal weapon attacks going forward (since the +3 weapon and expertise are new, we'll see how that goes).

 

[Inyssius]

If I'm DMing? [2] initially, transitioning over to [1] if (or when) I feel it necessary.

 

[jeffh]

Okay, with votes starting to slow down (though they're still going to be open for about a week yet), it has pretty consistently been:

• A little over half in favour of option 1
• About two thirds as many votes for option 3 as for option 1
• A minority of around 10% or less in favour of option 2
• Exactly two votes for option 4, both of which predate my note about Versatile Expertise.

Looks like my first inclination, to give these away as freebies via a house rule, was the way to go, unless someone makes a very good case otherwise. I'll continue to check in every few days to see if anyone's said anything that might change my mind on this, but that's how it appears at the moment.

 

[darkwing]

Would it screw up the game too much to disjoint chance to hit from attributes? That way any race can effectively be any class and there is more focus on flavor (feats, secondary powers, multi-classing) with attribute selection?

Edit:

I thought about it more, and I think the way of the future is to throw out the D20 altogether and make hitting dependent on tactics (combat advantage, bonuses from warlord, etc...). Don't leave hit/miss up to chance (but still roll for damage ). The crowd control powers might need to be rebalanced for this to work.

 

[jeffh]

Would it screw up the game too much to disjoint chance to hit from attributes? That way any race can effectively be any class and there is more focus on flavor (feats, secondary powers, multi-classing) with attribute selection?

Edit:

I thought about it more, and I think the way of the future is to throw out the D20 altogether and make hitting dependent on tactics (combat advantage, bonuses from warlord, etc...). Don't leave hit/miss up to chance (but still roll for damage ). The crowd control powers might need to be rebalanced for this to work.

That seems... well, first of all, like something that might be interesting but shouldn't be called D&D. There is at least one successful RPG built along these lines, Amber Diceless Roleplaying, that you might want to check out.

But also, it's too wild a departure to really have anything to do with this thread, since you're proposing throwing out a fundamental presupposition of it. This probably ought to be forked off.

 

[holywhitetrash]

Would it screw up the game too much to disjoint chance to hit from attributes? That way any race can effectively be any class and there is more focus on flavor (feats, secondary powers, multi-classing) with attribute selection?

Edit:

I thought about it more, and I think the way of the future is to throw out the D20 altogether and make hitting dependent on tactics (combat advantage, bonuses from warlord, etc...). Don't leave hit/miss up to chance (but still roll for damage ). The crowd control powers might need to be rebalanced for this to work.

any race can play any class effectively having a 16 primary is totally fine you will just be slightly behind the curve of others who optimized