weapon choice for a level 6 warblade fighter level 2 goliths

[llZaknafeinll]

I'm playing a level 9 warblade goliths with and had great roll
Str17
Dec17
Con17
Int12
Wiz11
Cha9
With my items and racial bonus, level attribute and items im at

Str24
Dex17
Con20
Int14
Wiz11
Cha9
I'm the main tank in the group I'm going into white Ravens and tiger claw mainly

So now I'm going to use a greatsword but my choices is have a large greatsword and enchanted doing 3d6 with power attack and cleave or have twf and oversize weapon and have two and enchanted medium greatsword doing 3d6 which would you choose?

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

I'm the main tank in the group I'm going into white Ravens and tiger claw mainly

Dude? Warblade not using Iron Heart? Not a good idea. It may not be Shadow Hand good, but its still amazing.

So now I'm going to use a greatsword but my choices is have a large greatsword and enchanted doing 3d6 with power attack and cleave or have twf and oversize weapon and have two and enchanted medium greatsword doing 3d6 which would you choose?

...No on both. First off, Cleave is utterly terrible. Waste of a feat even in core builds.

On the other hand, TWF is even worse. Without two-handing, your damage will be lower overall, and you'll be taking a penalty for your troubles. Worse still, you can't actually use greatswords like that, this isn't 3.0 and its sizing rules, so you're even more SoL.

Use a greatsword and then take some actually good feats, that's my suggestion. Oh, and Iron Heart is cool.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

What CJ is unable to say eloquently is that Iron Heart is a great discipline and you'd do well to pick some things up from it. Iron Heart Surge is pretty necessary for tanking since it means you can say "screw you" to debilitating effects, although you'll want to be reasonable with it and not do silly stuff like Iron Heart Surge away the moon because you don't like it. Wall of Blades could outstrip your own AC. Dazing Strike could later be pretty decent for your build since the DC against the daze effect is based on your strength modifier.

Tiger Claw has a few useful things, depending on how you want to tank and what your setup is. Sudden Leap can help initiate charges with the Battle Jump feat which you could then use Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, and Shock Trooper with to knock enemies around and deal great damage to them, plus it makes you a big target to be using battlefield control. Flesh Ripper might be called tanky since it lowers your enemy's AC and hit chance.

TWF is bad unless you have a lot of extra damage like sneak attack or you go into something like Bloodclaw Master or have the Multiheaded template from Savage Species. Even if you did have something like sneak attack, Oversized TWF is a bad feat because it will only get you 1 or 2 extra damage on your off hand when instead you could be going for something like Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, and Shock Trooper on a 2h build. Yes, they're being repeated, and that's because that setup is worth being repeated since it's a great combo. You'd also save money on only enchanting one weapon.

The general consensus on Powerful Build is that it does not allow using a 2h weapon of your size category in one hand, even at the usual -2 to attack rolls for being inappropriately sized. Your DM might rule otherwise since it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow it, but as mentioned going TWF won't benefit you as much as simply going 2h.

Cleave is generally a poor feat because it's so situational. Unless you expect to face a lot of mooks you should avoid it.

Are you using Unearthed Arcana at all? There are rules int it to let you buy off the goliath's LA since, as the book roughly says: "The abilities gained from level adjustment tend to matter less overall as the character levels up."

Speaking of UA, are flaws allowed? You could get the feats you need to be more tanky (lockdown/smackaround route) by having flaws.

If you're going for a lockdown tank route then I'd suggest a guisarme and armor spikes instead of a greatsword so you can threaten at a distance and make AoOs. You could make great use of Combat Reflexes with that Dex of yours.

 

[Empirate]

I second Guisarme plus Armor Spikes: the best melee weapon in the game IMO. Reach is just that powerful, and the potential to trip with reach is extremely good. The slightly lower base damage compared to the Greatsword doesn't matter much, since you'll be doing enough damage via Str and Power Attack. Armor Spikes are there so you threaten close by (within 5') as well.

Two-Weapon Fighting is almost always a sucker's choice, unless you can a) boast significant damage bonuses to each and every attack (outstripping the to hit penalty as well as the lesser base damage due to not two-handing a BFS), and b) make sure you usually get full attacks off. Neither is a Warblade's or generally tanky character's forte. You want to do damage, you pick a maneuver to do it for you as a standard action.

White Raven is the most powerful discipline, and Tiger Claw has some very good damage to go around, but just ignoring Iron Heart (as others have said), and equally importantly for a tank, Diamond Mind, doesn't sound like a good idea. I wouldn't just stick to certain disciplines, but eclectically pick up each and every maneuver that's really useful to me. Iron Heart Surge, Moment of..., and Hearing the Air are among the best maneuvers for a tank, so don't let them fall by the wayside!
[MENTION=29841]cyclone[/MENTION] Joker: What's so good about Shadow Hand? Apart from some nice mobility/utility, and stuff that's mostly useful to sneaksy backstabbers, I don't see it as on par with either White Raven or Tiger Claw. One of the weaker disciplines in my book.

Cleave is not the worst feat out there (situational it may be, but it will come up, and when it does, an extra attack is nice). But there's lots of stuff you want before thinking about Cleave, so leave that be for now.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

I wouldn't just stick to certain disciplines, but eclectically pick up each and every maneuver that's really useful to me. Iron Heart Surge, Moment of..., and Hearing the Air are among the best maneuvers for a tank, so don't let them fall by the wayside!

This is good advice, albeit marred by the fact that tanking doesn't exist in 3.5.

@cyclone Joker: What's so good about Shadow Hand? Apart from some nice mobility/utility, and stuff that's mostly useful to sneaksy backstabbers, I don't see it as on par with either White Raven or Tiger Claw. One of the weaker disciplines in my book.

I'll start with the only Ex teleports in the game, as that's a big draw on its own. Now, moving past that, I suggest you just sit down and read through Shadow Hand. Count the number of ability damage maneuvers or just Save or Sucks.

White Raven lets you disregard the action economy and Shadow Hand lets you pretend to be wizard. Tiger Claw gives you some extra damage and the ability to jump well. Yeah, not seein' much competition.

Also, SH has the greatest maneuver name ever. Jus' sayin'.

Cleave is not the worst feat out there (situational it may be, but it will come up, and when it does, an extra attack is nice). But there's lots of stuff you want before thinking about Cleave, so leave that be for now.

The extra attack is not "nice." Feats are expensive, and the benefit from it won't ever be meaningful.

Think about it: Will you ever get the benefit of cleave against a boss? No. Is it worth a feat to be able to hit an extra mook? Stomping mooks is not worth investment. And if you really want it, just take Steel Wind or something.

 

[Empirate]

The strange as hell Ex teleports are great, granted.

The ability damage isn't on par with anything you could be doing instead, though. Trust me on this, I wrote the book on ability damage .
The problem is basically that maneuvers are hard to spam (especially Shadow Hand), and that the amount of ability damage isn't high enough on any of these to make a one-off more than a slight annoyance.

The save-or-sucks aren't impressive either, in my opinion: the save DC is hard to boost to meaningful levels, and the effects are not that great, with Hand of Death as a notable exception (but there're tons of great 4th level maneuvers, so pick carefully, as this doesn't work on every opponent, and they have to be flat-footed).

What I like about Shadow Hand are mostly just the teleports and the stances.

In short, SH maneuvers aren't the first thing to pick as a Warblade IMO - especially since you'll have to spend feats or Swordsage levels to get them! Shadow Jaunt is the probable exception to this, as it's low level and affords great utility in and out of combat.


Tiger Claw maneuvers, sure, they're basically just damage multipliers. But they're good damage tools, something you'll want at some point, and with Devoted Spirit mostly barred to you. Sudden Leap and Hunter's Sense are excellent stuff at low levels. But, after considering, I must admit that TC lacks diversity and utility, all told.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

The ability damage isn't on par with anything you could be doing instead, though. Trust me on this, I wrote the book on ability damage .
The problem is basically that maneuvers are hard to spam (especially Shadow Hand), and that the amount of ability damage isn't high enough on any of these to make a one-off more than a slight annoyance.

...Wait, what? Hard to spam? Are we reading the same book?

Every one of them is a standard action. You get it for free. You also have the single best action economy breaker until Time Stop comes along. Plus, even Swordsages can refresh in combat if they take the feat every swordsage takes.

The save-or-sucks aren't impressive either, in my opinion: the save DC is hard to boost to meaningful levels, and the effects are not that great, with Hand of Death as a notable exception (but there're tons of great 4th level maneuvers, so pick carefully, as this doesn't work on every opponent, and they have to be flat-footed).

...Again, what? Wisdom is your primary score as a SS that you can get on just about every roll with relatively little effort. Oh, and did I mention you get all of those for free? And can tailor the saves to the enemy?

In short, SH maneuvers aren't the first thing to pick as a Warblade IMO - especially since you'll have to spend feats or Swordsage levels to get them! Shadow Jaunt is the probable exception to this, as it's low level and affords great utility in and out of combat.

Or you multiclass and take PrCs. ToB classes love their PrCs, especially the ever-amazing Idiot Crusader.

 

[Empirate]

...Wait, what? Hard to spam? Are we reading the same book?

Every one of them is a standard action. You get it for free. You also have the single best action economy breaker until Time Stop comes along. Plus, even Swordsages can refresh in combat if they take the feat every swordsage takes.

Swordsages will probably not want to spend a full-round action every other turn just so they can deal paltry Str or Con damage. Not if killing the foe outright is an option by simply dealing a lot of HP damage. Warblades can at best use the maneuver in question every other round and full attack in between. If you can spend three rounds in melee with anything as a Warblade, that thing ought to be dead, not slightly debuffed!
Even Crusaders that somehow get access to SH maneuvers will have to be lucky drawing cards if they want to spam one particular maneuver round after round. Idiot Crusaders don't count (rules questionability, high build dependence, only available at mid to high levels).

Oh, and if you're talking WRT, I'm not sold that it can be used on yourself. Even if it can, that's two instances of that maneuver applied two rounds in a row, and again, looking at how much ability damage SH maneuvers do, that's simply not impressive at all. No comparison to casters specced for debilitation.

...Again, what? Wisdom is your primary score as a SS that you can get on just about every roll with relatively little effort. Oh, and did I mention you get all of those for free? And can tailor the saves to the enemy?

Wis is probably going to be around 14 max, seeing as how Swordsages are quite a bit plagued by MAD. No comparison at all with a SoD focused caster - and even those are headed for swingy times. SoD or SoS simply isn't where it's at for anybody, it's too unreliable IMO, but then that's a playstyle/preference thing I guess.

Or you multiclass and take PrCs. ToB classes love their PrCs, especially the ever-amazing Idiot Crusader.

Again, Idiot Crusaders don't count. And we're still talking Warblade here. What PrCs are readily available to Warblades and offer SH again?



(BTW, no vitriol on my part. I enjoy the discussion, hope you do, too)

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Swordsages will probably not want to spend a full-round action every other turn just so they can deal paltry Str or Con damage. Not if killing the foe outright is an option by simply dealing a lot of HP damage. Warblades can at best use the maneuver in question every other round and full attack in between. If you can spend three rounds in melee with anything as a Warblade, that thing ought to be dead, not slightly debuffed!

...You do know they have more than one maneuver at a time, right?

Even Crusaders that somehow get access to SH maneuvers will have to be lucky drawing cards if they want to spam one particular maneuver round after round.

Only if you're not trying.

Idiot Crusaders don't count (rules questionability, high build dependence, only available at mid to high levels).

Patently untrue. There is no questionability whatsoever.

Oh, and if you're talking WRT, I'm not sold that it can be used on yourself.

Then you're wrong.

Even if it can, that's two instances of that maneuver applied two rounds in a row, and again, looking at how much ability damage SH maneuvers do, that's simply not impressive at all. No comparison to casters specced for debilitation.

Yet again, nope. You can casually throw out three relatively high DC ability damage or just negative level attacks for effectively free in one round while barely trying.

Wis is probably going to be around 14 max, seeing as how Swordsages are quite a bit plagued by MAD.

Completely untrue. They only care about wis and dex, even more true if they're SH-specced.

No comparison at all with a SoD focused caster - and even those are headed for swingy times. SoD or SoS simply isn't where it's at for anybody, it's too unreliable IMO, but then that's a playstyle/preference thing I guess.

Also completely wrong. SoD/SoS is where it's always been at and where it will always be at with only a very few exceptions.

Again, Idiot Crusaders don't count. And we're still talking Warblade here. What PrCs are readily available to Warblades and offer SH again?

Mot9. A dip and then Shadowsun Ninja. Both are relatively simple.

(BTW, no vitriol on my part. I enjoy the discussion, hope you do, too)

Same here. I love a good rules/build argument, and this is no exception.