Weapon Finesse and the 'skinny end' of a quarterstaff

[RangerWickett]

If I fight with a quarterstaff as if it were a double weapon, I can make one attack as if it were a one-handed weapon, and one as if it were a light weapon. But if I have Weapon Finesse, can I choose to make only one attack with the quarterstaff, using the 'light weapon' end? If I do, do I necessarily take the penalties for fighting with two weapons?

 

[LonePaladin]

No. This applies to any use of a double weapon. When you calculate your penalties for two-weapon fighting, you use the type that applies to a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, but you're not actually using a light weapon, so Weapon Finesse can't apply.

Weapon Finesse depends on the weapon itself; if it is a light weapon for you (or is one that specifically can use Weapon Finesse, such as a rapier), then you get the benefits. But if the weapon is in any other category, such as any two-handed weapon, then you can't.

 

[RangerWickett]

So do you add full strength bonus to the second head of a double weapon? Or heck, if it's a two-handed weapon, why not add 1.5 Str to each side?

 

[Hypersmurf]

There are two questions in here.

One is "Can I apply Weapon Finesse to the off-end of a double weapon?" The other is "Can I use a double weapon as a double weapon without attacking with both ends?"

Treating double weapons as a combination of one-handed and light shows up in two places in the PHB. (This may be clarified in the Rules Compendium, BTW - anyone have it yet?)

1. Equipment. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it.

2. Power Attack. Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.

Now, both places imply that if you're only using one end, it's considered a two-handed weapon; this argues that in order to treat it as one-handed and light, you will incur TWF penalties, even if you end up not making a second attack (just as if you began a full attack with two shortswords, but stopped after one attack).

As far as Weapon Finesse goes, it depends on how one reads Power Attack.

Y'see, the Equipment excerpt doesn't say to treat the double weapon as one-handed and light for all purposes; it says to treat it as such for purposes of the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat. The normal attack penalties are -6/-10; relieved by 2/2 if the off-hand weapon is light; relieved by 2/6 if you have the TWF feat. Nothing else is a 'normal attack penalty associated with two-weapon combat'; for example, the -4 penalty to Disarm checks for using a light weapon is not a penalty associated with two-weapon combat. It's a penalty that's completely independent of whether you're engaged in two-weapon combat or not.

The Power Attack text makes no such distinction. It just says "Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon." So the decision that needs to be made is whether or not this text is globally applicable, or only applicable in the context of Power Attacking.

Either way, it means you can't apply Power Attack to the off-end (treated as light), and the main end only gains 1-for-1 from Power Attack (considered a one-handed weapon).

But if we consider it to be specific to Power Attack, certain other things apply to double weapons:
1. They gain +4 to Sunder and Disarm checks with either end, rather than +0/-4; since this modifier is neither a normal penalty associated with two-weapon combat nor in the context of Power Attack, the weapon is not treated as a one-handed and light combination; thus, it is a two-handed weapon.
2. The primary end adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage; since Str bonus is neither a normal penalty associated with two-weapon combat nor in the context of Power Attack, the weapon is treated as a two-handed weapon. The off-end may deal 1.5x Str bonus (as a two-handed weapon) or .5x Str bonus (as an off-hand attack); this will require the DM's judgement to resolve (as in the situation of a lance wielded in the off-hand while mounted.)
3. The weapon cannot be used while grappling or swallowed whole.
4. The weapon cannot be used with Weapon Finesse.

If we treat the Power Attack text as globally applicable, it's different:
1. The primary end (as a one-handed weapon) incurs no modifier to Sunder or Disarm checks; the off-end (as a light weapon) takes a -4 penalty.
2. The primary end (as a one-handed weapon) adds 1x Str bonus to damage; the off-end adds .5x (as an off-hand attack).
3. In theory, the off-end can be used while grappled or swallowed whole; however, since one may not fight with two weapons while grappling, it could be argued that the weapon must be treated as two-handed, and thus one cannot treat the off-end as light, rendering it unusable.
4. The off-end of the weapon can be used with Weapon Finesse.

-Hyp.

 

[amethal]

Lots of good stuff

I've been using the "power attack is universally applicable method", without even knowing it.

Now I've realised I could be doing it the other way, I think I'll switch. (I'm a DM, not a player so its not cos I'm a munchkin )

Do you have a preference?

And if its the first method, do you think the off hand should do 1.5 times damage?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Do you have a preference?

And if its the first method, do you think the off hand should do 1.5 times damage?

My preference is 'universally applicable'; in cases where a two-handed weapon makes an off-hand attack, however (whether it's through double weapons using the other reading, or an off-hand lance, or using your greatsword as your off-hand weapon with your armor spikes as primary, or whatever), I feel the .5x takes precedence over the 1.5x.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Either way, it means you can't apply Power Attack to the off-end (treated as light), and the main end only gains 1-for-1 from Power Attack (considered a one-handed weapon).

-Hyp.

Wouldn't it technically be a one-handed weapon used in two hands though? The quarterstaff itself IS one weapon (as opposed to two short swords, one in each hand, two seperate weapons). You need to hold it with both hands in order to (a) use it as a traditional two-handed weapon or (b) use TWF with it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wouldn't it technically be a one-handed weapon used in two hands though?

When you use it as a double weapon, you fight with it "as if fighting with two weapons", which I read as "one in each hand".

The quarterstaff is held in two hands, but the one-handed-weapon-equivalent portion of the quarterstaff you're Power Attacking with is held in one.

-Hyp.

 

[LonePaladin]

Taking a second look at Power Attack, the single/light interpretation of a double weapon would apply that way when using it in this manner — in other words, if you take the extra attack(s), you can only apply the damage bonus to the primary attack, but you take the attack penalty on all attacks.

Something to keep in mind is the intent of the designers when they made the change to Power Attack to favor two-handed weapons. Before the revision, PA applied only one way — attack penalty = damage bonus — regardless of the weapon. They altered it when they realized that people were taking a single level of ranger (which was very top-heavy) to get free TWF, then using PA with two weapons (or, worse, two spiked bucklers).

If you're a two-weapon fighter, you really don't want to use Power Attack, because you're getting the penalty twice, but only getting the benefit once. PA is meant to favor single-weapon combatants, especially the two-handers.

If you have both feats (PA and TWF) and are using a staff, you basically have options. Go for the single attack with PA and get extra damage, or use both ends for extra attacks. It wouldn't be worth your while to try to use both methods at once.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you're a two-weapon fighter, you really don't want to use Power Attack, because you're getting the penalty twice, but only getting the benefit once.

Unless you take the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat (Complete Adventurer), and fight with two one-handed weapons - the PA bonus damage will apply to both.

-Hyp.