weapon focus daggers and sorcerers

[Dice4Hire]

Also more accurate. Going Sorceror->Daggermaster isn't a munchkin thing, just a particular strategy (and one with signficiant costs, as you have a lower hit/damage on your Daggermaster powers than you would with an Arcane class). You can't really look at someone's build choices and decide whether they're a muchkin (or other nasty word about power-gamers) or not; it's a playstyle thing.

Nah, munchkins are out there, and powergamers, and they cannot be explained away with calling it a playstyle.

This is a prime example of using the rules to get a significant advantage.

Giving up 2 powers (daggermaster) in exchange for a huge power jump 18-20 crit is not much of a cost.

And the golden rule, it makes no sense if you look at it non-numerically.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Giving up 2 powers (daggermaster) in exchange for a huge power jump 18-20 crit is not much of a cost.

And the golden rule, it makes no sense if you look at it non-numerically.

So giving up 1/4 of your Dailies isn't significant? Compare this also to something like the Scion of Arkhosia path for a Dragonborn Dragon Soul Sorc. They get to fly, have useful powers, increase the power level of their Dragonbreath, etc...

There's also another PP called "Dragon Guardian" or something like that (don't have my book in front of me). You get a second Dragon Soul resistance type, get to crit on 16-20 when spending an AP on a Close Blast attack, and ignore all resistances and immunities on Close Blast attacks. And that's all before you include the 3 powers you gain with that PP, which are all pretty solid (Not amazing, but they're useful additions instead of complete crap).

Take either of these paths and use a Jagged Dagger and you're doing pretty decent in terms of nailing enemies with crits. Plus, you've saved yourself a feat that you can use for character improvement or multiclassing into a class that's more useful overall, instead of a one-trick pony class.

 

[mneme]

Nah, munchkins are out there, and powergamers, and they cannot be explained away with calling it a playstyle.

What you said is not a contradiction to what I said.

Moreover, munchkin != optimizer.

 

[DracoSuave]

What you said is not a contradiction to what I said.

Moreover, munchkin != optimizer.

No, but Munchkin is a subset of optimizer.


And a sizeable subset at that.

 

[eriktheguy]

No, but Munchkin is a subset of optimizer.


And a sizeable subset at that.

I've seen bad players who are also munchkins. Their inability to grasp the rules makes them poor optimizers. They are also munchkins.
Many of the players at my current table are optimizers and not munchkins.
Players can fall into neither, either, or both.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So giving up 1/4 of your Dailies isn't significant? Compare this also to something like the Scion of Arkhosia path for a Dragonborn Dragon Soul Sorc. They get to fly, have useful powers, increase the power level of their Dragonbreath, etc...

There's also another PP called "Dragon Guardian" or something like that (don't have my book in front of me). You get a second Dragon Soul resistance type, get to crit on 16-20 when spending an AP on a Close Blast attack, and ignore all resistances and immunities on Close Blast attacks. And that's all before you include the 3 powers you gain with that PP, which are all pretty solid (Not amazing, but they're useful additions instead of complete crap).

Take either of these paths and use a Jagged Dagger and you're doing pretty decent in terms of nailing enemies with crits. Plus, you've saved yourself a feat that you can use for character improvement or multiclassing into a class that's more useful overall, instead of a one-trick pony class.

This is all true but a couple of war rings and a blood iron dagger coupled with DM and you won't miss any of that other stuff at all from an optimization standpoint, that's for sure. Jagged weapon is good, but I'd MUCH MUCH rather have bloodiron and an 18-20 crit range. Sure you are giving up 2 powers, but by level 20 your at-will attacks are critting 15% of the time and the MINIMUM kind of damage you're looking at doing on a crit starts with about 10d10 bonus damage on top of whatever the power was and maxed striker damage. It gets real ugly real fast. The problem is DM has one lethal focus and that is doing horrendous amounts of crit damage, so its an optimizers dream really. There are many ways to buff it and you just really won't care about having a couple missing powers since your at-wills are perfectly capable of single-shotting even some equal level monsters if you push it and get a really good bonus damage roll.

 

[DracoSuave]

I've seen bad players who are also munchkins. Their inability to grasp the rules makes them poor optimizers. They are also munchkins.
Many of the players at my current table are optimizers and not munchkins.
Players can fall into neither, either, or both.

I never claimed they were GOOD at optimizing.