Weapon Focus & Implements

[Wardo]

Yes, I agree Weapon Focus has the look and feel of a martial ability. That is, you've learnt how to twack people harder, doing more damage.

And so getting that extra damage when you channel a spell through it (using a staff or pact dagger as an implement, say) doesn't make sense.

My point above was that it would have been nice to change the wording on Weapon Focus so it maintains the fluff you're looking for (I hit people harder with this weapon). The easiest way to do so would be to re-word the feat to change "damage rolls with your chosen weapon group" to "damage rolls of [keyword] Weapon powers using your chosen weapon group".

Instead, they embraced the clumsy wording currently in place that has the damage bonus helping implement users as well, which is disappointing. I don't think there's much more confusion beyond that.

Also, I think if we haven't seen Implement Focus yet, we aren't going to; or at least I hope we don't. I really prefer the flavor of the elemental feats, if not their implementation with crazy prerequisites.

 

[Bolongo]

Also, I think if we haven't seen Implement Focus yet, we aren't going to; or at least I hope we don't. I really prefer the flavor of the elemental feats, if not their implementation with crazy prerequisites.

Implement Focus is the sort of thing that would have to be introduced in a PH, since it's not particular to any one power source. So, maybe in PH3, a year from now?

Of course, it would trample all over the elemental damage feats, which would need errata of some sort to not become completely obsolete, so I doubt it's going to happen.

Another downside of IF would be locking casters into specializations - it would become less useful for a staff or orb wizard to carry a few wands with different dailies for special occasions. And DMs would have to be more careful with loot placement.

So maybe the best houserule would simply be to strike the prereqs from Astral Fire et.al.

 

[Trebor62]

I think WOTC views the different magic damage types i.e. fire, cold, necrotic etc as being analogis to weapons groups. Thus we have the different feats that add damage to the different magic damages and the weapon focus feats that add damage to a weapon type groups.

 

[Trebor62]

So maybe the best houserule would simply be to strike the prereqs from Astral Fire et.al.

That would be fair as none of the Weapon focus feats have prereqs. I can think of no reason the "Dark Fury etc." feats should when the Weapons focus feats don't.

 

[tallyrand]

So, wait, does this extrapolate out to Sorcerer/MC Rogue-Daggermaster? Or was this answered ages ago with warlocks?

 

[DracoSuave]

CapnZapp- The fluff kinda blurs together tho when you start having people who use sword-attacks and sword skills as spells.

In terms of crunch, the only differences between weapon and implement (other than specific instances) are:

a) A weapon gives you their proficiency bonus to hit and has a [W] stat.
b) An implement does not, and is not required. In fact, unlike a weapon, a non-magic implement is just for show unless you're a wizard.

The thing is, removing the weapon/implement blurring for Weapon Focus wouldn't do anything to make implement users better or unique.

Weapon users can already access the elemental feats through a magic weapon power, and in doing so can use those feats with all their powers for their entire carreer, while still getting the benefits of a weapon.

Implement users were never able to fully take advantage of elemental feats, and in order to get the Weapon focus equivalent, had to suffer from some insane levels of MAD. Weapon users were much further ahead in the options department as a result.

Opening up the feats that don't mention weapons explicitly has only leveled the playing field, giving Implement users the same access to weapon feats that weapon users have always had to implement feats.

It might not be 'fair' for orb-wizards, as an example, but at least -some- wizards can benefit.

 

[Wardo]

Weapon users can already access the elemental feats through a magic weapon power, and in doing so can use those feats with all their powers for their entire carreer, while still getting the benefits of a weapon.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get across here. A weapon user wouldn't take an elemental damage feat over Weapon Focus, and they are all feat bonuses, so they don't stack.

Are you just pointing out that weapon users are in a better position to use these feats that wizards and warlocks? I admit, that's a little strange, but doing so does close off a ton of other weapon powers.

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get across here. A weapon user wouldn't take an elemental damage feat over Weapon Focus, and they are all feat bonuses, so they don't stack.

Wintertouched+Lasting Frost. Echoes of Thunder. Oncoming Storm. Hellfire Blood. Far more reliable in the hands of an elemental damage user because a weapon user can use them with -any- power when they have the right weapon, but there are no keyword adding implements, which limits an implement user's power use.

Are you just pointing out that weapon users are in a better position to use these feats that wizards and warlocks? I admit, that's a little strange, but doing so does close off a ton of other weapon powers.

Maybe. But in the meantime, what's the over/under on awesomeness for a tempest fighter/TWFranger with a lightning weapon in one hand and a thunder weapon in the other, using both to give Dual Strike/Twin Strike -both- the thunder AND the lightning keywords, thusly making hits with -either- weapon boost damage AND hit for a round because he took Oncoming Storm and Echoes of Thunder.....

Yet a wizard who specializes in thunder and lightning -can't- do that unless weapon/implement blurring is implemented.

 

[CapnZapp]

Hang on, still not sure I've got it.

First let me paint the picture I'm guessing would be the "ideal case":

Weapon users go the Weapon Focus route, getting extra damage for their preferred group (or groups) of weapon.

Implement users go the "Elemental Focus" route, getting extra damage (or other nifty bonuses) for their preferred type (or types) of damage.

That is, martial characters focus on their tool. Magical characters focus on the damage (type of damage).

As I understand it, part of the problem is that magic weapons turn your martial powers into elemental attack powers? They really should only convert the damage to elemental damage, while the power itself not counting as an elemental attack! (Yes? No?)

---

Now, I can imagine this "ideal case" to be a bit restrictive for special classes, but why not first implement the above, and then override it for the special cases? (Just like all other rules work in D&D)

That is, let me take a quick stab at getting the above to work; then you can help me out by pointing to what builds and what classes break, okay?

Weapon Focus: gives +2 damage for all your powers with the Weapon keyword for a specific weapon group. The benefits of this feat does not stack with the benefits of any other "Focus" feat.
"Elemental Focus": gives a benefit for all your powers for a specific damage type, regardless of how those powers are delivered. The benefits of any one of these feats do not stack with the benefits of any other "Focus" feat.
("Elemental Focus" is my shorthand for several feats, including from PHB1 and Oncoming Storm from PHB2)

The point is that for any given attack, you can only claim a single "benefit". Keeping things balanced between characters who use "easy access" tools (weapons) and those who use "difficult access" tools (implements).

So if you have a Lightning Longsword +1, and the feats Weapon Focus (Heavy Blades), Raging Storm (PHBp200) and Oncoming Storm (PHB2p178) you can't get all three benefits for a single attack (you'd need to choose):
+2 to damage (through Weapon Focus)
+1 to damage (through Raging Storm)
+1 to attack rolls with subsequent Thunder powers (through Oncoming Storm).

Of course, I still think the regular Fighter's attacks with a Lightning Sword should not count as Lightning powers. It should remain a martial weapon attack that unlike Lightning Bolt shouldn't benefit from something like Raging Storm.

(Then feel free to have a "irregular fighter", a Swordmage perhaps, who can benefit from this, and being balanced accordingly. But that'd be a special case which the general rules wouldn't have to take into account)


Am I on the right track here? Isn't this what the discussion is about...?

 

[Wardo]

Maybe. But in the meantime, what's the over/under on awesomeness for a tempest fighter/TWFranger with a lightning weapon in one hand and a thunder weapon in the other, using both to give Dual Strike/Twin Strike -both- the thunder AND the lightning keywords, thusly making hits with -either- weapon boost damage AND hit for a round because he took Oncoming Storm and Echoes of Thunder.....

Yet a wizard who specializes in thunder and lightning -can't- do that unless weapon/implement blurring is implemented.

Fair enough, but I think the feats you've listed all go beyond the vanilla elemental damage feats by granting either to-hit bonuses or untyped damage bonuses.

A more flavorful (or maybe just more to my liking?) fix would be closer to Capn Zapp's suggestion: tie elemental damage feats to implement powers, and weapon damage feats to weapon powers. Balance restored, and no feats were destroyed in the process. Implementing weapon-implement blurring would make the vanilla elemental damage feats completely obsolete.

It's too bad, because I like the idea of a tiefling with a flaming sword, and I think your thunder and lightning ranger is pretty cool (though as a DM, I'm not sure if I would allow the keywords to transfer between weapons just because it's technically one power) but if I need to give those guys up to get rid of the wizard with weapon focus: staff and the sorceror with weapon: focus dagger, I think I'd be willing to do so.