D&D 4E Weapon Sizes must die in 4E

Marshall said:
Theres a huge range of real world weapons in both those categories.

True, and it was a mistake for me to speak in absolutes. However, I stand by what I said for the most part.

No, thats a Gladius or what D&D calls the Broad Bladed Short Sword(and a large version is a Claymore)

The gladius is certainly one option for short swords. But so is the baselard, or many dozens of others. And rarely--not never, as I corrected, but rarely--have I seen any where the handle and/or blade wasn't wider in proportion than the equivalent of the longsword. In fact, the only example I can think off of the top of my head where that is the case is the katana/wakizashi pairing.

(Not saying that is the only example. But just going by memory, I can think of a lot more instances where the differences are dramatic than instances where they are not.)

The basic D&D short sword is little more than a long knife or exactly the same as a short bladed long sword(whatever that is)

If that were the case, they'd both have the same damage type. But the D&D longsword is primarily a slashing weapon, while the D&D short sword is primarily a stabbing weapon. That alone indicates that one cannot simply be a "short-bladed" version of the other.

Yes, a game that uses, as its most basic weapon, a fictional amalgamation of realistic weapons has no business creating sized based varieties of those weapons.

Obviously, I disagree.
 

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MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
Klaus said:
Fork, or course.



:D

:lol: Very nice, Klaus!

The problem with the "large longsword uses the greatsword proficiency" theory is that not only is it not detailed in the rules, it is directly contradicted in them. How? By the way the halfling rogue is dealt with.

In 3e, the halfling rogue is proficient with the *human* sized versions of all of their weapons. They're proficient with the "short sword" but not the "long sword". However, to a halfling, the "short sword" is a long sword! Uh-oh... and what about a halfling-sized dagger? Can they use it?

Cheers!
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Mouseferatu said:
If that were the case, they'd both have the same damage type. But the D&D longsword is primarily a slashing weapon, while the D&D short sword is primarily a stabbing weapon. That alone indicates that one cannot simply be a "short-bladed" version of the other.
Then there's Daggers, which can do everything.

Cheers, -- N
 

Goblyn

Explorer
I'm with the vampiric rodent on this one ... they are are different ypes of weapons within the rules ... what would you say, as DM, if the human wielding a shortsword, wanted to use it as a small longsword, taking the -2, against a skeleton in order to bypass the DR 5/slashing? If you give the obvious answer, 'No damn way', then why allow it to a small-sized creature, a-la halfling or gnome?

I see some argue that the weapon sizing rules make the small races virtually(or even less-than) useless in combat ... when was the last time you saw an adult or even a pit-bull(the closest RL approximation of a Kobold) get beaten up by a 10-year-old? Small races have no business in melee combat. Ever. This is something even the abstractness of DnD cannot ... nay; SHOULD not, smooth over.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Goblyn said:
I'm with the vampiric rodent on this one ... they are are different ypes of weapons within the rules ... what would you say, as DM, if the human wielding a shortsword, wanted to use it as a small longsword, taking the -2, against a skeleton in order to bypass the DR 5/slashing? If you give the obvious answer, 'No damn way', then why allow it to a small-sized creature, a-la halfling or gnome?
Exactly! He should be using a dagger.

The blades all look very similar, but only daggers allow you to change damage types at will. :)

Cheers, -- N
 

Nifft said:
The blades all look very similar, but only daggers allow you to change damage types at will. :)

Indeed, and that's a problem with the RAW. Strictly speaking, a hefty majority of short swords, and the vast majority of longswords, should be P/S, not just one or the other*. But at least for the time being, by the RAW, since one is P and the other is S, they cannot be different-sized versions of the same weapon.

*(Many such weapons were designed for both, and even those that are more optimal at one or the other are at least capable of both. A gladius, for instance, was intended primarily for thrusting--but you still wouldn't want to get slashed with one.)
 

Goblyn

Explorer
Nifft said:
Exactly! He should be using a dagger.

The blades all look very similar, but only daggers allow you to change damage types at will. :)

Cheers, -- N
Woo! Someone Understands me! Yay!:)

Maybe instead of those pesky weapon size rules(really .. who can keep up with a -2 being instilled!?!) it could be written that any off-sized weapon wielded as one with a different damage type would have to move down a die size for damage! Wouldn't THAT be simpler?

I'm sorry ... I've been drinking ...
 

DarkKestral

First Post
Marshall said:
Theres a huge range of real world weapons in both those categories.

No, thats a Gladius or what D&D calls the Broad Bladed Short Sword(and a large version is a Claymore)

The basic D&D short sword is little more than a long knife or exactly the same as a short bladed long sword(whatever that is)

Yeah, but I've held the 'short bladed long sword' and claymores. The two designs are very different. For example, claymores tend to have significantly longer hilt sections.. often about 3-4 times as long, and the hilt is a much larger percentage of the total length, sometimes reaching about half. Additionally, most swords designed to be wielded in 2 hands were never sharpened to the guard like many one-handed weapons were. This was for two reasons: one, it made the weapon easier to parry with and less likely to break. For another, it allowed the user to get better leverage much more easily. So the use of a 2-handed sword is not the same as for a 1-handed version, and is balanced according to the supposition that either the person will be able to balance it by wielding it in both hands where they are spread apart to maximize the torque that counters the torque from gravity affecting the blade end, or that they will be roughly evenly spread apart and bracketing the center of gravity of the sword.

A one-handed version would be balanced farther back. A creature of larger size using the weapon would probably have balance issues (and bad balance is definitely a fairly significant hampering factor, though a skilled fighter who is both strong enough and familiar enough with that particular blade would be able to compensate) that rob them of strength of force. Also, larger blades have a nasty tendency to be difficult to forge, and therefore prone to defects, which make them much more likely to snap. Considering the fact that many large-size monsters have attack bonuses from strength 1.5-2 times a humans, that would mean vastly increased rates of destruction, since the relatively thin handles and blades (a larger creature would need a thicker blade to compensate.. however, there is only so far one can go before it becomes unfeasible) would make vibration problems and other problems resulting in torsional and other stresses that are more severe during impacts.

As a result, there's two problems: one, small humanoids would probably be able to use ordinary human weapons well, assuming they have the strength and size to use them appropriately. Daggers and shortswords are likely to be used well, as they are short and therefore don't require much height, and halflings are likely to have roughly human-sized hands. Longswords would have to be made specifically for them, as well as all types of 2-handed use weapons. Below the 3'-4' range, we'd have to make custom shortswords too, though daggers might still be workable. Below about 2', we'd have to make custom daggers. I believe it would be the reverse for 2-handed weapons. for the 7'-8' range, medium 2-handed weapons are likely to be preferable, as well as some of the longer types of longsword. Short swords might be sized up, but perhaps not. Daggers would need to increase in size to account for increased hand sizes. 8-9, short swords get sized up, and longswords go on the bubble. 9-10, longswords get sized up, and maybe 2-handers. 10'+, and you're in a realm of SLOs, (sword-like objects) as no real swords could be forged that size and be usable in combat unless made by a true master who is incredibly lucky. So I don't mind ogres using different types of weapons than humans. Ogres need weapons that can stand up to the stress of impact, and swords just won't work for them. Clubs and blunt weapons will.

Either way, the weapon sizing would not be the 3.0 version, but somewhere between a hybrid of 3.0 and 3.5.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
MerricB said:
What proficiency does a human need to use a small trident?
This is the issue? Your medium sized characters are mugging small mariners and want to use their gear?

The 3.5 weapon size rules are a solution in search of a problem.
 

Ranger REG

Explorer
MarkB said:
Nope, the question was whether Frodo should be taking a penalty for wielding a weapon sized for an elf, and I agree that the answer is "yes".
I know. But I still think the rules need a little modification for leeway.
 

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