Weapon Speed - changing the way BAB works

[genshou]

after considering what you have all said, i am now fairly certain that adding bonuses (or penalties) to init, adn rolling init each round will probably be the best way of going about this. I want five groups to look like this

Very Fast Weapon (+2) - ie: Rapier

Fast Weapon (+1) - ie: Handaxe

Normal weapon (+0) - ie: unarmed strike

Slow Weapon (-1) - ie: Warhammer

Very Slow Weapon (-2) - ie Ransuer

now, as for the usage of two weapons, the slower one is the one which the adjustment to init is used. This represents the fact that you are only as fast as your slowest weapon. A one handed weapon held in two hands increases one catergory of speed (until Very Fast, thereafter no other increase occures); a two handed weapon attacks at the speed stated. Any weapon which can be affected by weapon finesse counts as one catergory faster in terms of which speed catergory applies (if they are already in the Very Fast catergory, no other increase occurs). I will have to think about how crossbows work, since they already have penalties asscociated with them; other than that, anything else you think need to consider?? comments please; this has been a very informative thread for me

Here's one thing from SKR's rant that you didn't cover. What happens if someone draws a different weapon midway through attacking using Quick Draw? Or better yet, switches weapons at the start of their turn?

I'm inclined to rule that if a character draws a slower weapon at the start of their turn, they suffer the Init penalty immediately. Otherwise, nothing changes until the next round when Init is rerolled.

Though it's not in the RAW, I'd certainly require initiative to be rerolled every round when using this variant.

 

[Odysseus]

The way I'd use this would be to have the bonus/penalty apply on the 2nd and subsquent attacks by the same weapon in the same round. So example a very fast weapon +2, with a BAB of +14/+9/+4 , you get +2 on the +9, and +4 attacks if using the same weapon.

 

[Planesdragon]

So, anyone have access to the SRD or willing to post tables? Also, any feedback on this? Sorry for this being sorta bland, but i dont have the actual book, adn thus no tables

I used this IMC for a few months, before eventually abandoning it in an effort to simplify the game. (In fact, it was tossed out with the iterative attacks system...)

The system is very simple. All "medium" speed weapons are at a Delay of Medium (5) -- longsword, quarterstaff, that sort of thing. Exceptionally fast weapons, such as a dagger or rapier, have a Delay of Fast (4). Exceptionally slow weapons, such as mauls or Greatswords, have a delay of Slow (6). NO physical weapon has a delay other than this.

You can, by way of a feat, increases the speed of your chosen weapon by 1. A magical items of quickness increases the speed of itself by 1. And, someone under enough Haste effects increases their delay by 1 or more as well -- wereas someone under enough Slow effects has their speed decreaesed by 1 or more.

Delay cannot be increased beyond (IIRC) Very Slow (7) or decreased beyond Very Fast (3).


I wasn't aware that Sean had updated his rant, but in his section on delay he overlooked the increased rate of hits and the effect of magic and feats on the ability. OTOH, he also hit the nail on the head with the two problems with any weapon speed factor system -- the need for better reach rules (or just to consider ordinary reach at all) and the fact that they mess up the "balance" of the game.

My suggestion for the first one is to give weapons that have a larger reach (such as Greatswords) a +2 or +4 initiative bonus, and roll only once per melee exchange.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

Weapon speed should apply to attack rolls not initiative or attacks IMO

But so should reach, Initiative is not how fast you move your weapon but whether you are acting 1st 2nd etc.

Youre system of init would only work if all players decided their actions before combat and then let it play out

PS: If you are holding a dagger you get +2 initiative to cast a a spell?
PPS:What about 2wf do you get 2x the bonus?

 

[Hawken]

The system from the EQII RPG was very interesting and one that I like. Weapon Speed determined the number of attacks you got with your weapon, not your BAB. If you had a Speed 4 weapon (like a Longsword, I think), then you got an extra attack when your BAB was at +4; +4/+1; +8/+4/+1, etc. Speeds could go as low as 2, and weapons had speeds up to 7 (scythe), but you were still limited to a max. of 5 attacks with this system--more with two weapon fighting, etc.

Nyaricus' system seems a little odd though. Granted, rapiers are fast weapons, but it is still 3-4 lbs of steel in your hand. How could you move your hands faster with that extra weight in them than simply barehanded? That doesn't make sense to me. Sure, you might not have the 3-4' of reach that a rapier provides, but an unarmed person with the same training as a rapier fighter, should be moving faster and making more attacks than someone carrying around that extra weight.

Then again, you get the same thing with armor. Someone in leather is going to be moving faster than someone in full plate, and thus, should logically be able to make more attacks.

 

[Odysseus]

Then again, you get the same thing with armor. Someone in leather is going to be moving faster than someone in full plate, and thus, should logically be able to make more attacks.

That agument is, armour is encumberence, encumberence effects max dexterirty, and max dexterity should effect the max number of attacks . Which does sort of sound right, but its effect on game play would be terrible.

But so should reach, Initiative is not how fast you move your weapon but whether you are acting 1st 2nd etc.

Thats right. Reach , intitive and movement rules are already in the rulebook. I wish the reach rules we're better, but i'm pretty sure any change would be a lot more complicated.
With speed factors, your looking at changes to 2nd and subsquent attacks with the same weapon in the same round. The speed at which you can get the weapon , moved to attack again.Or to react to a AOO. The ability to attack first is an intitive modifier or a reach effect. And would be different to a speed modifier.
Often the fast/light guys move and fight, so are only getting one attack per round. So they don't need a speed modifier.
Also bear in mind if your giving quick weapons a bonus , you should be giving the big slower weapons a bonus in some other way, to even things out.

 

[Drowbane]

Rogues only gain the sneak attack once when it applies in a round. a level 20 Rogue, with 3 attacks doesnt get +10d6 sneak attack for each individual attack, but rather for one of them.

Interesting House Rule. Not one I'd personally use though.

 

[Baragos]

I'm fiddling around with the initiative rules from Combat and Tactics (2nd ed AD&D). It breaks each round into 5 phases: very fast, fast, average, slow, very slow. Your size or weapon determines when you can first act, a medium person could moved in phase fast but if he was wielding a greatsword he'd have to wait till phase slow or very slow before being able to hit.

I know the system can seem a little complicated, but one thing that it does is reinforce the feeling of simultaneousness. E.g. orc moves up to fighter, fighter has option of moving away or attack, orc can attack or move again after fighter has taken his action.

For iterative attacks, they'd fall in later phases...so a character with 3 attacks due to BAB, who uses a weapon with fast speed, would be able to attack once in each of phases fast, average, and slow. If you "run out" of phases, extra virtual phases are added to the end of the round. The advantage in balance of this is that a fighter with a dagger (Fast IIRC) does not get to attack more often than the fighter with the greatsword (Slow I think), but the dagger wielder will attack before the greatsword wielder. This makes it a valid option to be fighting with small weapons such as daggers.

It is possible to delay actions to later phases...perhaps even into earlier phases in the next round...so if you were using a slow weapon you could ready it to strike at a person moving up to you in next round's fast phase.

Initiative is rolled at the start of combat and determines the order within each phase. If you roll a natural 20, all your actions gain a -1 step bonus, e.g. if using a weapon that is normally average, it becomes fast. If you roll a natural 1 all actions are one phase slower.

Actions that are not attacks fall on a phase determined by size:
Tiny or smaller: very fast
Small-medium: fast
Large-huge: slow
Gargantuan or larger: very slow

So drawing a weapon (a move equivalent action unless you have quick draw) would fall in the fast phase if you were small or medium. You may still combine that with a move, which would also take place in the fast phase.

Moving more than speed would be split up over several phases...so you could start moving in the fast phase (moving your speed) then continue in the average or any slower phase (again moving your speed). If you run or charge you may move up to double spped in each of adjecent 2 phases (fast and average, for instance).

There are probably a few things I've forgotten to mention...