Weapon Speeds For d20 Fantasy Gaming

[nonsi256]

Not sure I follow. Looking at that charts in the 3.5 PHB, extra attacks always start with a +1, not a +0.

Thus, 6th level: +6/+1 (not +6/+0).

11th level: +11/+6/+1 (not +11/+6/+0)

16th level: +16/+11/+6/+1 (not +16/+11/+6/+0)

Where were you seeing the BAB +0 attacks?

The idea with scaling BAB is that iteratives with 1-handed weapons keep coming at -5s (e.g. +11/+6/+1).
Small weapons will now iterate at -4s (e.g. +11/+7/+3).
Large weapons will now iterate at -6s (e.g. +13/+7/+1)

The relevancy of 0s regards the times when the next attack is just gained:
Small weapons:
* +4/+0
* +8/+4/+0
* +12/+8/+4/+0
* +16/+12/+8/+4/+0
* +20/+16/+12/+8/+4/+0
Meduim weapons:
* +5/+0
* +10/+5/+0
* +15/+10/+5/+0
* +20/+15/+10/+5/+0
Large weapons:
* +6/+0
* +12/+6/+0
* +18/+12/+6/+0

2H weapons are still the superior weapons and 1H are still better (thanks to PA, disarm & sunder).
The only difference is that the advantage is less evidents and there's a bit less incentive to avoid your preferable style fluff-wise due to mechanical disadvantage.

And again, I regard +0 as relevant because of the fact that 1st level characters with less than full BAB ARE entitled an attack.

 

[Water Bob]

And again, I regard +0 as relevant because of the fact that 1st level characters with less than full BAB ARE entitled an attack.

I see where you are coming from now, but I don't think I agree about the impact on the game. I don't think a 1st level character, under these rules, should get a second attack just because he's holding a lighter, smaller, weapon.

This rule makes levels 1-4 the "learning ground", where PCs are slowly becoming experts with their weapons. At level 5, they are expert enough to use a dagger more quickly than they could before (BAB +5/+1), but they haven't yet learned the same with bulkier weapons (BAB +5 for Standard and Slow weapons).

That seems about right to me, and I like how the extra attacks fade into use (for example, the two attacks with Quick weapons but not Standard or Slow weapons, as shown above for the 5th level character) instead of a glaring extra attack that just happens when the character turns 6th level. With this rule, there's two attacks with Quick weapons only at level 5 (BAB +5/+1); two attacks with Quick and Standard weapons at level 6 (Quick is BAB +6/+2, whild Standard is BAB +6/+1). And two attack will all three weapon classes at level 7 (Quick is BAB +7/+3, Standard is BAB +7/+2, and Slow is BAB +7/+1).

That all seems to balance out nicely.





ALSO, THERE'S A CONAN RPG RULE THAT CAN BE USED WITH D&D....

In the Conan game, weapon length and bulk play a part in how well the character can defend himself. In D&D terms, a modifier is placed on AC depending on bulk of the weapon.

There are three "bulk" ratings in the game: Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed weapons. This describes how easy the weapon is to wield.

Apply a +1 bonus or a -1 penalty to defense as needed per weapon category.

So, for example, if two fighters with longswords fight each other, there is no bonus or penalty to AC because the weapons they use are One-Handed, about the same size and bulk, and about as easy to wield. They're in the same category.

It's when weapons from different categories are used that the bonuses and penalties are used.

Say a Fighter with a Two-Handed sword fights a Thief with a dagger. This means the Fighter would get +2 AC against the Thief because of his weapon length. When the Fighter attacks, the Thief would get a -2 penalty to his AC. There's two categories difference, so the penalty and bonus are +/-2.

If the difference is only one catgory, as with a Fighter with a Longsword (One-Handed weapon) fighting Barbarian with a Two-Handed sword (a Two-Handed weapon), the Fighter is penalized -1 AC while the Barbarian is given a bonus +1 AC due to weapon reach.

I think this rule would work well with the Speed Factor rule discussed in this thread.

 

[nonsi256]

I don't think a 1st level character, under these rules, should get a second attack just because he's holding a lighter, smaller, weapon.

I've never even hinted something like that.
With TWF - sure, but iteratively... at 1st level - no way.

This rule makes levels 1-4 the "learning ground", where PCs are slowly becoming experts with their weapons.

1. I don't remember ever seeing this rule.
2. A lot of solid melee feats (Weapon Spec, Spring Attack, Whirldind Attack etc) have BAB +4 requirement, not +5.
3. Remember that a solid hit from a great sword counts more than 2 solid hits bw a dagger, so having +4/+0 at BAB +4 is not at all unbalanced.

. . . That all seems to balance out nicely.

I can't and won't argue personal taste. All I can do is present mine.

ALSO, THERE'S A CONAN RPG RULE THAT CAN BE USED WITH D&D....

In the Conan game, weapon length and bulk play a part in how well the character can defend himself. In D&D terms, a modifier is placed on AC depending on bulk of the weapon.

There are three "bulk" ratings in the game: Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed weapons. This describes how easy the weapon is to wield.

Apply a +1 bonus or a -1 penalty to defense as needed per weapon category.

That's really nice. Very realistic and mechanically sound.
However, I believe the impact on gameflow will not be worth the realism - especially since you'll also have to take into account the differences in two opponents' sizes (e.g. a Titan's dagger is larger than a human's great sword).
This could become a nightmare of calculations.
Weapon speed, OTOH, is something that's calculated once.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

What does Sean K. Reynolds have to say about this?

 

[Water Bob]

What does Sean K. Reynolds have to say about this?

Interesting article, but Sean doesn't quite address the system presented here. He does look at placing modifiers on interative attacks, but he doesn't assume the system as presented above--the difference is that the first attack, under these rules, are not subject to the speed modifier. It's only the second attack.

And, changing the interative attacks that way changes the result that Sean finds in his discussion.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Interesting article, but Sean doesn't quite address the system presented here. He does look at placing modifiers on interative attacks, but he doesn't assume the system as presented above--the difference is that the first attack, under these rules, are not subject to the speed modifier. It's only the second attack.

And, changing the interative attacks that way changes the result that Sean finds in his discussion.

I think you didn't actually read his article, since he addresses your exact system about 3/4 of the way down under the heading "Adjusting Iterative Attacks."

Of course the first attack isn't affected by speed modifiers; that's why it's adjusting iterative attacks.

 

[Water Bob]

I think you didn't actually read his article, since he addresses your exact system about 3/4 of the way down under the heading "Adjusting Iterative Attacks."

Of course the first attack isn't affected by speed modifiers; that's why it's adjusting iterative attacks.

I did read the article, but quickly. And, I don't agree with his assessment. I see now that he did examine the system, but he fails to look at modifiers. He just looks at number of attacks.

And, he focusses on the very low levels. This system has little effect (which I think is a plus) at the lower levels.

For example, he says that there's no difference for a 4th level fighter using a dagger or using a longsword.

Well, that's true. No effect will be felt until level 5.

And, he says (indicates by his chart) that there's no difference in level 5 and level 6.

But, there is a difference.

At level 5....

Longsword BAB +5
Dagger BAB +5/+1

At level 6...

Longsword BAB +6/+1
Dagger BAB +6/+2

The dagger doesn't get another hit, but it's 5% more likely to hit. This isn't the same as level 5.

So, I disagree with his finding. There is benefit to the system, and it's really no work at all--a milisecond, maybe. The article seems to indicate that using the speed factors is a big hassel. It takes no time at all.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I did read the article, but quickly. And, I don't agree with his assessment. I see now that he did examine the system, but he fails to look at modifiers. He just looks at number of attacks.

... Yes? Isn't that the point of the speed rules? Because you want faster weapons to have more (and therefore better) iterative attacks?

And, he focusses on the very low levels.

Actually, he looks at levels 1-20 for the particular implementation.

For example, he says that there's no difference for a 4th level fighter using a dagger or using a longsword.

Correct.

And, he says (indicates by his chart) that there's no difference in level 5 and level 6.

No, he doesn't. He says at level 5, that a dagger has 1 more attack than a longsword. And that at level 6, it doesn't.

This is accurate, as your numbers also show.

So, I disagree with his finding. There is benefit to the system, and it's really no work at all--a milisecond, maybe. The article seems to indicate that using the speed factors is a big hassel. It takes no time at all.

You don't understand the article.

The article isn't saying that speed factors are a big hassle*, but that creating, balancing, and playtesting such speed factors is a big hassle. It's easy to say, "Daggers at -4. Longswords at -5. Greatswords at -6."

It is far, far more difficult to determine whether or not those are the right numbers to use; it is far, far more difficult to come up with rules that account for unarmed strikes, hand-axes, and characters using giant-sized daggers sorta-like-swords-maybe? How does TWF work, when you've got, say, a longsword in one hand and a shortsword in the other? What about a longspear and some spiked armor? Is a longspear slower or faster than a glaive, glaive-guisarme, or lochaber axe? How about a longbow shot once, then used as an improvised club, then fired again? How does that work?

* And, even then, the article admits, they can be. What happens when a character with a +9 BAB is holding a dagger (Fast), and throws it, then quick draws another dagger (Fast), and throws it, and then pulls a throwing axe (Normal) and wants to throw that? Can he? Or do you need to recalc some attack bonuses mid-round, which argues against your "It's totally easy!" point?

 

[Dandu]

It is far, far more difficult to determine whether or not those are the right numbers to use; it is far, far more difficult to come up with rules that account for unarmed strikes, hand-axes, and characters using giant-sized daggers sorta-like-swords-maybe? How does TWF work, when you've got, say, a longsword in one hand and a shortsword in the other? What about a longspear and some spiked armor? Is a longspear slower or faster than a glaive, glaive-guisarme, or lochaber axe? How about a longbow shot once, then used as an improvised club, then fired again? How does that work?

And furthermore, what if you have a waterskin slung incorrectly across your chest while you're doing it?

 

[Water Bob]

No, he doesn't. He says at level 5, that a dagger has 1 more attack than a longsword. And that at level 6, it doesn't.

This is accurate, as your numbers also show.

And, you don't see a difference with the numbers I posted? After 4th level, the dagger is always slightly better, in terms of attacks, than the longsword. If it doesn't get an extra attack in comparison, it has a better modifier to hit.

The article doesn't speak to that reality.

The article speaks of daggers getting an extra attack half the time. The reality is that the dagger is favored over the longsword all the time (except novice levels 1-4).

You don't understand the article.

The article isn't saying that speed factors are a big hassle*....

I don't huh. Well, when he said, "The work necessary to make these variant iterative progressions balanced isn't worth the small reward for doing so." I thought that was pretty clear as to his point.

I don't think it's me with the understanding problem--as evidenced with your comments below.

...but that creating, balancing, and playtesting such speed factors is a big hassle. It's easy to say, "Daggers at -4. Longswords at -5. Greatswords at -6."

It is far, far more difficult to determine whether or not those are the right numbers to use; it is far, far more difficult to come up with rules that account for unarmed strikes, hand-axes, and characters using giant-sized daggers sorta-like-swords-maybe?

The rule pretty much already did that work. It's in the OP. Unless the GM wants to change it, most weapons are already categoriezed.

As for Tiny and Giant-sized weapons, I don't use them in my game. But, I bet there's an easy tack-on rule one could use for those if the GM put his head to it. I'm not concerned with that since its not relevant to my Conan game.

How does TWF work, when you've got, say, a longsword in one hand and a shortsword in the other?

Both the Longsword and the short sword are Standard weapons, under the rule, so there would be no change at all.

What about a longspear and some spiked armor? Is a longspear slower or faster than a glaive, glaive-guisarme, or lochaber axe?

I really don't know what all of those weapons are, since I don't use them in my game. But, if they're all about the same size as the glaive, then they're all Slow weapons. Use SF 6. Pretty easy.

How about a longbow shot once, then used as an improvised club, then fired again? How does that work?

That's three attacks. Sounds like a minimum 11th level character. Both the club and longbow are Standard weapons, so there would be no change from from how you'd normaly handle this.



Because each of the examples you've given are really no brainers with regards to the Speed Factor rule, I'm not so sure that you understand the rule very well. You may want to re-read it.