Weapons as Implements. Working as intended?

[Pyrex]

I was chatting with a friend (he plays our party's wizard) about his next few levels, and got to talking about the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat.

Can he take AIP(Light Blade), pick up a Radiant Dagger +1, and turn the damage from his Scorching Burst into Radiant?

As near as I can tell, it should work (because if it doesn't, then AIP(Light/Heavy Blade really doesn't do anything), but it seems strong.

Thoughts?

 

[Danceofmasks]

I thought radiant is minimum +3.

In any case, if your player wanted to use a radiant quarterstaff (instead of a dagger), does it work?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Personally, I don't think it counts. The wording for Radiant is "damage done by this weapon," which I would interpret as weapon damage, or requiring the power to say Weapon as a keyword and have a [W] in the damage line.

Now, if he really wants to do Radiant damage with his Scorching Burst, he could take the Admixture feat and mix in Radiant with the Scorching Burst.

Brad

 

[Mad Hamish]

Actually Arcane Admixture doesn't allow you to add Radient damage, just fire, cold, lightning, thunder or acid

 

[Destil]

This is per the way the rules have been ruled to work; it's not as intended, as this was a clear change from the intent when the PHB was first printed over time for things to become more permissive.

(The implement rules are, in general, a bit of a mess).

 

[BobTheNob]

I was chatting with a friend (he plays our party's wizard) about his next few levels, and got to talking about the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat.

Can he take AIP(Light Blade), pick up a Radiant Dagger +1, and turn the damage from his Scorching Burst into Radiant?

As near as I can tell, it should work (because if it doesn't, then AIP(Light/Heavy Blade really doesn't do anything), but it seems strong.

Thoughts?

I have heard this same argument, but with (for instance) a frost sorceror. They get daggers as implements. Could they just not pick up a frost dagger and turn all damage into cold, thereby leveraging all the tasty bonus's?

Its one of these situations where I think the designers had an intention, but didnt consider the consequences as time rolled on. Especially if you consider a "Staff of Acid and Flame", which is a good exmaple of an implement which is meant to convert spell damage and (to me) indicates that the ability to convert spell damage is a whole different thing to what fire/frost/e.t.c. weapons do.

As far as I am concerned, the ability to convert damage is from normal damage attacks only (e.g. a frost weapon can convert a normal damage attack to frost, but not a fire damage attack)

 

[abyssaldeath]

I have heard this same argument, but with (for instance) a frost sorceror. They get daggers as implements. Could they just not pick up a frost dagger and turn all damage into cold, thereby leveraging all the tasty bonus's?

Its one of these situations where I think the designers had an intention, but didnt consider the consequences as time rolled on. Especially if you consider a "Staff of Acid and Flame", which is a good exmaple of an implement which is meant to convert spell damage and (to me) indicates that the ability to convert spell damage is a whole different thing to what fire/frost/e.t.c. weapons do.

As far as I am concerned, the ability to convert damage is from normal damage attacks only (e.g. a frost weapon can convert a normal damage attack to frost, but not a fire damage attack)

What about the example in the PHB for the Flaming Weapon?

For
instance, if a paladin uses a flaming sword to attack
with a power that deals radiant damage, the power
deals both fire damage and radiant damage.

Are Paladins special for some reason? For that matter what makes non-martial melee classes so special that the {insert energy type here} Weapons that they get to convert their damage, but implement users don't?

 

[ValhallaGH]

Deleted for being totally wrong.

 

[abyssaldeath]

The fact that their attacks deal damage based on the weapon.

If the enchantment said "damage dealt when attacking with this weapon" then it would be kosher to use it when using the weapon as an Implement. It doesn't.

Dealt by the weapon, which means attacks that deal [W] damage.

No, whenever they mean [W] they say Weapon Damage, Weapon Damage Dice or damage die for this weapon.

Examples: Vorpal Weapon, Ironskin Belt, Rogue Weapon Talent, Killer’s Eye Shadow Assassin Attack 11, Hammer Rhythm, Scimitar Dance, High Crit, ect...

There is also a Dragon article "Sorcerer Essentials" that says you can use a radiant weapon to change your implement attacks to radiant damage. That article was written by Rob Heinsoo one of the Lead Designers for 4th edition. I guess he is wrong too.

 

[Obryn]

IMO, if we ever see a 4.5, there will be a massive overhaul of the weapon/implement division.

But yes, as it stands, the Wizard can definitely do what you're describing.

-O