Weapons Locker info

Byrons_Ghost said:
I happened across the Weapons Locker info page and thought I'd post a link here, since I hadn't seen much on the boards about it.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/d20m/881570000

Who's going to be getting this? I'm not all that interested in a firearms book, myself. Unless it's got a lot of other content, this'll be the first D20 Modern book that I pass on. Of course, since WotC has only put out three so far that's not saying much. ;)

A book full of guns? Yawn. The d20 Modern core book has more than enough firearms, thanks. I, on the other hand, am dreaming about d20 Future every night...

Atom Again
[who thinks 3d6 is 3d6 whether its from one gun or another]
 

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Dana_Jorgensen said:
And while you consider an extensive descriptions pointless, they are very important in providing details you won't otherwise learn. Like with FN's P-90, the biggest example of a gun in D20M based exclusively on its coolness factor, when its really no more powerful than a hot loaded .22 LR carbine, like the AM-180. And nobody else points out that FN claims the M240 receiver is good for in excess of 100,000 rounds, failures start occuring at 26,000 rounds fired, malfunctions at 70,000 rounds, and the receiver will fall apart in your hands at any point after firing 90,000 rounds. Or how about the Ares FMG, mentioned in so many places that you'd think it was a hot new gun, even though you don't see it anywhere. They never mention that the gun was actually designed in the 70's, never got past prototyping, and less than 3 dozen were manufactured and sold to the Secret Service. If you want a folding SMG, you'll have to turn to the Russian PP-90M. These little nuances, which don't get mentioned on those short descriptions, are what help separate two guns with otherwise identical statistics.

Biohazard, would this gentleman qualify as a Gun Munchkin? ;)

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[who thinks a Remington is something you shave with]
 
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ArthurQ said:
...And i LOVE reading crreamy on the john...
Ok, first of all, I'd really like to say for the record that I'd really, really rather not see those words in the same sentence again... :)

Seriously, though, I understand the dual nature of what people want in a gun book. Most gamers want a nice statblock, a good, brief description with a little background and a picture. Many others would like a longer history and stats for multiple systems. A good many folks want something in the middle. It's very hard to fit all of those in any one sourcebook; brevity does tend to breed errors at times, while having way too much info on individual weapons can make it hard to use the book.

Personally, I like it all, and I've got UMF, many of Dana's books, and a couple others I've found out there. I mix-and-match what I like, and take the more learned opinion where I find differences. But I like things to be fairly accurate and balanced, and not everyone is that worried about it; I also enjoy reading a lot of the history even if it doesnt have a huge game effect for the other guys in my group, and I try not to bore them with the super-nitty-gritty.

I also understand Dana's frustration at times; he is a very learned and experienced individual on the subject of military arms, and has a very notable devotion to the accurate portrayal of such. I have a similar but less learned bent towards 'archaic weapons', particularly european, asian, and middle eastern melee weapons from the 12th to 18th centuries, and I sometimes get very frustrated to see horrible and glaring inaccuracies in the presentation of a sword, mace, hammer, etc in a gaming product, mainly because a little research would put the person on the more accurate path in the first place (and sorry, re-watching Conan 17 times doesnt count :) ). While I'm no expert, I've trained with several of these weapons, briefly experienced several more, read over 30 books on the subject, own a few real ones, and have corresponded and/or briefly trained with several of the arguably best guys on the various subjects around today.

I just dont get as vocal, or as twisted up, as Dana; apparently his experience and passion for realism on this subject far exceeds mine :). While he does get a bit sour at times because of this, I personally can't fault him too much because he's helped me out a good bit in a lot of other areas, particularly in stuff that isnt published anywhere (such as good artillery info), and he's always been johnny-on-the-spot with answers to any questions I've put to him, which further reinforces my belief in his love of the subject.

What?! You mean you don't want a 4 page treatsie on the Longsword for D&D?!

For shame!

lol
Exactly my point. Most folks don't, so I try not to get too twisted up about it until I see people basing real-world assumptions off of horribly inaccurate information from their gaming material.

Though if they did want that treatise, they would first find out there's no such thing as a longsword :)
 
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ledded said:
Though if they did want that treatise, they would first find out there's no such thing as a longsword :)
OT bits:Actually... (and this is very off topic) there is*, but not as D&D portrays it. :)
But that's another post altogether, and probably one more suited to weaponry forums rather than gaming forums.

*I say there is but its more akin to what D&D classes as either a bastard sword or a great sword. Depending on the historical sources you're looking at. (but as I stated, this is neither the time nor the place to discuss that topic) :)


Back on topic, or some vestige thereof...

I totally agree that it'll always be difficult to please all the people all the time. Which is why I enjoy seeing third party products (be they in this case UMF, or Big Bang or what ever other supplements there are) As I said, I like to be given an option. And while some supplements are good due to the historical accuracy and realism they integrate, others are just as good simply because all they provide is crunch.

Ultimately, I'm happy with whatever supplements are decently published out there (be that in electronic media or print) I'd just rather make up my own mind on what I find to be good, and what I find to be dross.

I suppose this is more than just $0.02AUD?

D.
 

DMauricio said:
OT bits:Actually... (and this is very off topic) there is*, but not as D&D portrays it. :)
But that's another post altogether, and probably one more suited to weaponry forums rather than gaming forums.

*I say there is but its more akin to what D&D classes as either a bastard sword or a great sword. Depending on the historical sources you're looking at. (but as I stated, this is neither the time nor the place to discuss that topic) :)
Actually, "longsword" is a broad sweeping category encompassing hundreds of actual categories/makes of swords across quite a few cultures, the term being coined by an RPG and not actually being used to describe an actual sword by anyone who actually wore one on his belt. What D&D classifies as a 'longsword' for simplicity's sake includes swords with completely different uses, styles, weights, lengths and time periods.

It's like going to your local gunshop, and asking to purchase a "Big Pistol". When looked at like you are a nut, you can only answer "Here. In this book. It says Micky Spilane has a 'Big Pistol'. Sell me one." :)

Even "bastard swords" and "great swords", while being loose terms of classification used by actual historians, denote a wide variety of blades that the only thing they have in common is length, grip, culture, or style of use, and sometimes not even those.

Is that a bad thing? No, not really. It does keep it simple in D&D, though I have occasionally come up with a character with a specific type of 'longsword' in our game, and the DM will work with me if I've got a good reason having it deviate from the 'longsword' category.

Sorry about the OTC, just wanted to toss that out there from the perspective of a sword-nut, since we often get into the minutia of gun-bunny goodness on these boards. If you want, I can supply you with some very good source material references off-list, just PM me.

DMauricio said:
Back on topic, or some vestige thereof...

I totally agree that it'll always be difficult to please all the people all the time. Which is why I enjoy seeing third party products (be they in this case UMF, or Big Bang or what ever other supplements there are) As I said, I like to be given an option. And while some supplements are good due to the historical accuracy and realism they integrate, others are just as good simply because all they provide is crunch.

Ultimately, I'm happy with whatever supplements are decently published out there (be that in electronic media or print) I'd just rather make up my own mind on what I find to be good, and what I find to be dross.

I suppose this is more than just $0.02AUD?

D.
You said it. I prefer to take what is good with what is bad, and I often don't agree with everything that a given author does in his RPG. I dont like every weapon block in UMF, have trouble sometimes quickly finding what I want in my Big Bang books, and I'm still not happy with the treatment of shotguns in a lot of books out there, but I take from whatever I like or agree with, overwrite their nice neat tables, and go with it.

Will I buy this new gun book? Maybe, once I read a few reviews from our more gun-savvy folks on the boards and get a chance to browse it. But only if it has something to add, and with the pretty good sources of info that I currently have, it better do something new if it wants my $$$.
 

Personally, I prefer cross-reference charts of firearms used during certain time periods or settings, such as the Western, Civil War, 1930 Chicago Mob era, WWI WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War, Cold War, etc.

If you have that in the book with brief description in each firearms entry, that's fine by me.
 
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ledded said:
It's like going to your local gunshop, and asking to purchase a "Big Pistol". When looked at like you are a nut, you can only answer "Here. In this book. It says Micky Spilane has a 'Big Pistol'. Sell me one." :)

People come in all the time and say such. Or "I want a clip for my 9"
"Which 9mm?"
"huh?"

Though, actually, it's more common to get "I had this gun in this video game, can I get one?"

My main problem with the d20 gun stuff is the bias. I mean, a Glock doesn't cost that much, and certainly isn't more of a masterwork than a Colt... Okay, quality you can argue, but price is stable.

CoCd20 showed a glaring lack of understanding of gun laws in general, and I wouldn't doubt if much of the info was drawn from an anti-gun website or other source of similar bent.

Basically, for D20 Modern I prefer example guns, and if the players want more historical detail, they can get it elsewhere. :)

(for example, my last D20 Mod guy was a computer technician. He had a nice high polish 38 super colt with pearl grips, simply because he'd have picked it from the "looks neat" section of the catalog. Stats were identical to a Glock, i.e. MW Gun, but 10+1 rounds.)
 

ledded said:
...Sorry about the OTC, just wanted to toss that out there from the perspective of a sword-nut, since we often get into the minutia of gun-bunny goodness on these boards. If you want, I can supply you with some very good source material references off-list, just PM me...
I may take you up on that offer, lemme see where my own research takes me first (hopefully I won't roll low) :)

ledded said:
... Will I buy this new gun book? Maybe, once I read a few reviews from our more gun-savvy folks on the boards and get a chance to browse it. But only if it has something to add, and with the pretty good sources of info that I currently have, it better do something new if it wants my $$$.
I agree with your statements so far. And you're right, we seem to get too bogged down with minutia (be it swordy goodness, gun-bunny goodness, or even other aspects which carry over from our own fields of interest into gaming)

Unfortunately, we all sometimes forget that not all gamers out there share all of our interests. And specifically with a system such as d20 Modern, our very real, and very valid experiences may sometimes cross over into game.



D.
 

Vocenoctum said:
People come in all the time and say such. Or "I want a clip for my 9"
"Which 9mm?"
"huh?"
Heh heh. From my perspective on swords, though, it's more like this:

70 out of 100 folks who come in say they want a clip, but couldnt point one out behind the counter and you suspect they aren't really sure what they are used for, though they will have plenty of goofed-up book and movie references to them. When you try to show them the magazines, they say no thanks, I dont feel like reading right now.

10 more folks will come in and show you this nice shiny paper-mache and tinfoil handgun they have, and swear it's just as good as an original. They cry when you crush it in your fist on accident when you are handling it, at their insistence, to test it's 'balance'.

10 more guys have seen one, maybe handled one or a copy of one once, and claim to be trained. They can very excitedly imitate some moves with one John Woo style, but so badly that you would be very afraid for yourself and others if they actually held one, so you tell them you only sell beanie babies and direct them to the door.

9 more guys come in and have some terminology down, a few references, and are convinced they are an expert. They handle one when you show it to them fairly well, and just when you are about to hope against hope that you've found someone who knows what he's saying, he tries to jam the *magazine* into the end of the barrel, and when it doesnt fit he tells you it's defective. You are almost glad he did it because he's pointing the firearm with said barrel at himself and using the hammer as a sight across the room and his thumb to pull the trigger, and telling you how it has such a good 'feel' or 'balance'. Storms out in a huff when you try to gently correct him.

Then the last guy, number 100, comes in. He immediately picks out the correct magazine for his Sig Sauer with all of the nice mods, and quietly but expertly handles the weapon without a lot of bru-ha-ha. He pays, thanks you for your business, and you feel like a tear is about to roll down your cheek as you watch him leave. :)

Ok, maybe a bit exaggerated, but you get my point.

And the really sad part is that I dont consider myself to be that learned or experienced on swords; there are plenty of guys over on www.swordforum.com and a very few other respectable places that are.


Vocenoctum said:
Though, actually, it's more common to get "I had this gun in this video game, can I get one?"
ROFL... people who do that need to be hit with a clue-by-four. With a rusty nail in it.

Vocenoctum said:
My main problem with the d20 gun stuff is the bias. I mean, a Glock doesn't cost that much, and certainly isn't more of a masterwork than a Colt... Okay, quality you can argue, but price is stable.

CoCd20 showed a glaring lack of understanding of gun laws in general, and I wouldn't doubt if much of the info was drawn from an anti-gun website or other source of similar bent.

Basically, for D20 Modern I prefer example guns, and if the players want more historical detail, they can get it elsewhere. :)

(for example, my last D20 Mod guy was a computer technician. He had a nice high polish 38 super colt with pearl grips, simply because he'd have picked it from the "looks neat" section of the catalog. Stats were identical to a Glock, i.e. MW Gun, but 10+1 rounds.)
Yeah, I get the same feeling sometimes. I'm not sure it's always author bias, but bias based on popular culture. Everybody thinks Glocks are the coolest because in the 90' all the stories about them being able to fire effectively after freezing them, burying them in mud, dropping them into the ocean, taping them to the outside of a space shuttle on re-entry, etc went around. For some reason people assume they are the only handguns that can operate under less than perfect conditions because their marketing got more press. I'm sure they are fine handguns, but are they *that* much more fine than all the others? I'm not sure personally, but that's what I have all my gun bunny compadres on the boards for :)

Kinda like truck-cutting katanas.

While being a proponent of technology, and working in a technology field, I believe that authors of any kind of work for public consumption should be forced to do without the internet for research until they have done at least <x> amount of actual library research, interviews, and actual field experience with what they are writing about. It's just too easy to jump out there and grab the first few things without really getting in depth enough to gain a decent understanding. Not that the internet is all bad; there are a lot of good sites out there for various topics, but for every one good one there are 10 bad ones and 20 more decent ones that are misleading or misconstrued.

Once you do some real research, you can then use the internet in order to get info while being able to sort the grain from the chaff.
 
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Ranger REG said:
Personally, I prefer cross-reference charts of firearms used during certain time periods or settings, such as the Western, Civil War, 1930 Chicago Mob era, WWI WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War, Cold War, etc.

If you have that in the book with brief description in each firearms entry, that's fine by me.
That would be a beautiful thing. Firearms, all listed out, most major makes/models, sorted by time period, caliber, etc, all in big tables. Good blurps on each with a pic through the rest of the book. /WISTFUL

I've actually been piecing together my own from a ton of sources out there; it would be a nice thing to have but maybe a bit too ambitious for most folks. I have a feeling we will eventually see it from Big Bang or someone else though, it will just take a lot of time to put together.
 

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