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[Weekend Design] New Classes?

GlassJaw

Explorer
I agree; I think the bard, as it stands now, fails in its design goals to the point where applying "patches" won't work. It needs to be almost completely torn down and rebuilt from the ground up in terms of class abilities to fix it.
Agreed. As I stated previously, giving the bard a full caster progression would be my "quick fix". Barring that, it needs to be blown up and rebuilt.

Well, the idea of the bard as generalist is how I always perceived the class. And while I do think that generalists are harder to design, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're predisposed to fail. I think a good generalist is one that can serve as any of the major roles in a party, but not in an optimized fashion.
Would you take "much greater chance to fail" rather than "predisposed"? :p

There is no doubt the generalist "archetype" is a tricky one in 3ed.

The bard has some casting ability but doesn't have the ability of the wizard, sorcerer, or cleric but still relies on his spells more than the ranger and paladin. He can fight but won't be able to keep up with the fighter, barbarian, or rogue. He has a fair amount of skills and knowledge abilities but if you've red Trailblazer, you know that those are hardly a factor when determining balance.

It's all about combat baby.

Which is also how I feel players "value" their character, even if not directly. I always like the skill monkey classes, and also like to play a character that supports the party. I've played a bard and a beguiler, both of which are easily overshadowed in combat. And since so much of D&D is combat, it's disheartening to the player. Heck, I dumped the beguiler and rolled a new character. I just wasn't enjoying it. (The problem with the beguiler is that he's virtually useless in melee and against non-humanoid opponents.)

And it's not even about being able to "keep up" with the other classes. It's about how the player values his contribution to the party. When I was playing my bard, the joke was that I should get a hat that said "+1 for my homies" and put it on when I use my bard song. Otherwise, I didn't have a lot to contribute.

The monk also suffered from this somewhat. On paper, the monk looks like a combat monster but in practice, he doesn't have the striking power of the barbarian or rogue and lacks the defensive ability and hit points of the fighter or paladin.

You can mitigate one area to try to remain relevant but it's difficult because of the ability score and feat requirements. With Trailblazer, we chose to focus on the monk as a striker.
 
Regarding the "psionic" variant of the monk and his affiliated brethren, is it:

PSION
PSYCHIC WARRIOR
MONK

or

PSION
MONK
???

etc.

Whatcha reckon?

And yes, for the record, this could force me to do some development work with psionics...
Its definitely:

PSION
PYSCHIC WARRIOR
MONK

There has never been a full BAB psionic base class. The psychic warrior uses psionic feats to get around any problems his lack of a full BAB might cause him combat. With the changes introduced in Trailblazer the monk best fits the basic combat role.
 

Vespucci

Villager
AFAICT, New classes are pretty low on Bad Axe's 'to do' list. But that does make it a good fan project. Trailblazer's Spine gives something to hang new classes on, and we've got the 'design space' notes on where to start.

The easiest step is a clean-up:

Full-casting Bards

[sblock=Amendments]Adjust the Bard's BMB progression to 1:1.

Adjust Power Chord. This feature becomes available at 3rd level, and improves at 5th (II), 7th (III), 9th (IV), 11th (V), 13th (VI), 15th (VII) and 17th (VIII).

Adjust Inspire Competence. This feature becomes available at 4th level. Description should begin, "A bard of 4th or higher level with 7 or more ranks in a Perform skill..."

Adjust Inspire Greatness. This feature becomes available at 10th level. Description should begin, "A bard of 10th or higher level with 13 or more ranks in a Perform skill..."

Adjust Inspire Heroics. This feature becomes available at 16th level. Description should begin, "A bard of 16th or higher level with 19 or more ranks in a Perform skill..."

Delete Arcane Forte.

Add:
9TH LEVEL BARD SPELLS
Dominate Monster
Foresight
Hold Monster, Mass
Power Word Kill
Shades
Summon Monster IX
Wail of the Banshee
Weird[/sblock][sblock=Notes]This is a necessary change to open up space for the 'Trickster' half-caster.

Power Chord is integral to the Bard's spellcasting. I've maintained its relationship with the Bard Class access to spell levels.

The Bardic Music abilities have been shuffled in order to avoid 'dead' levels'.

Arcane Forte is redundant.

The 9th level spells were hinted at in the Trailblazer teasers. The Bard probably needs some extra buff spells at high levels.[/sblock]

With that out of the way (because obviously, my interpretation is totally non-controversial), we can go on to new classes. I tend to think that the Arcane half-casters are less work. There's the obvious spell-casting weapon-user, but discussion up until now has overlooked another archetype, familiar to those of you with a Complete knowledge of the Arcane arts (though this has a broader thematic role).

Elementalist

[sblock=Progressions]HD: d8
BAB: 3:4
BMB: 1:2

The elementalist's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Persuasion (Cha), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points per level: 4 + Int modifier

Additional languages: An elementalist may substitute Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, or Infernal for one of the additional languages available to the character because of his race.[/sblock][sblock=Class Features]Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Elementalists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields. Armor of any type interferes with the elementalist's movement, which may cause her spells with somatic components to fail.

Spellcaster: At 1st level, the elementalist gains access to all the spells on the sorcerer spell list. To ready or cast a sorcerer spell, an elementalist must have a Charisma score equal to 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an elementalist's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the elementalist's Charisma modifier. She receives bonus spell slots and ready spells per rest if she has a high Charisma score.

An elementalist's base magic bonus is equal to half his level. A 1st level elementalist with a base magic bonus of +0 is only able to cast 0th level spells, which take effect at a minimum caster level of 0.

Arcane Blast (Sp): The elementalist can channel esoteric forces into a potent attack. An Arcane Blast is a ray with a range of 60 feet. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target. No saving throw is allowed. An Arcane Blast deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level. At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, this damage is increased by 1d6 (to a maximum of 10d6 at 19th level). An Arcane Blast is the equivalent of a spell equal in level to half the elementalist's class level.

Elemental Speciality (Su): At 1st level, an elementalist chooses an elemental speciality. At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th), the elementalist either chooses a new elemental speciality or improves a speciality she already possesses. No speciality can be improved more than twice.
  • Air Speciality I: The elementalist gains electricity resistance 10. When using arcane blast, the elementalist may choose to do electricity damage. If she does, any creature damaged by her arcane blast must make a Fortitude save or be dazed for one round.
  • Air Speciality II: Increase the elementalist's electricity resistance to 20. When she deals electricity damage with her arcane blast, add +1 to each die of damage and creatures that fail their save are stunned (as well as dazed) for one round.
  • Air Speciality III: Increase the elementalist's electricity resistance to 30. When she deals electricity damage with her arcane blast, add another +1 to each die of damage (total +2) and increase its Save DC by 2.
  • Darkness Speciality I: The elementalist gains darkvision to a range of 30 feet, or increases the range of her existing darkvision by 30 feet. When using arcane blast, the elementalist may choose to deal negative energy damage. If she does, her arcane blast deals d4s instead of d6s of damage, and any creature damaged by it must make a Will save or gain a negative level.
  • Darkness Speciality II: When the elementalist deals negative energy damage with her arcane blast, creatures that fail their saves gain 1d4 negative levels. Those that succeed still gain a negative level.
  • Darkness Speciality III: Creatures that take negative energy damage from the elementalist's arcane blast gain 2d4 negative levels, with a Will save to reduce this to half.
Occult Shield (Su): At 2nd level, the elementalist gains the service of a minor spirit. This being works invisibly to protect the elementalist from harm, granting her a +1 Shield bonus to AC. At 5th level, and every three levels thereafter, this bonus is increased by +1 (to a maximum of +7 at 20th level).

Elemental Tactics: Beginning at 3rd level, the elementalist gains additional bonuses from her elemental specialities.
  • Air Tactics: The elementalist gains +2 to Initiative checks. She gains an additional +2 bonus for each time she has improved her air speciality.
  • Darkness Tactics: The elementalist gains the ability to rebuke undead as a cleric of half her class level. She can use this ability a number of times per rest equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier (if any). The first time she improves her darkness speciality, she gains 2 additional uses of rebuke undead each rest. The second time she improves her darkness speciality, her ability to rebuke undead improves to that of a cleric of her class level.
[/sblock][sblock=Notes]In terms of basic combat prowess, this is intended to be a striker roughly comparable to the rogue.

I understand that the way I've written this, Arcane blast will have an effective spell level somewhere between 0th and 10th level. It doesn't bother me.[/sblock]

Following my latest update, this still needs a few more options to be filled out. But there's something (barely) playable for a few levels.
 
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Vespucci

Villager
I figured out my secret class faster than expected.

When looking at Wulf's .jpg, I thought that the Fighter doing double duty was odd. Claims that this class is "baseline" or "vanilla" struck me as somehow wrong-headed, too - the Fighter is a hero, it's folks like the Commoner and Warrior who are "baseline" and "vanilla"! So is the Fighter more Arcane or more Divine? I say he's Arcane, for two reasons. Firstly, the HD scheme makes more sense that way (assuming that the Arcane half-caster has d8, and my versions do). Secondly, the Fighter's approach to combat is to trust in his training, not to put faith in a higher power. That philosophy is something he shares with the Wizard (and to a lesser extent, the Sorcerer).

So I set to making a Divine non-caster with not much more than the notion that it would have a d12 HD, full BAB and (looking at my notes) "zeal". Once it became clear that this class represents Conquistadors and Samurai, everything fell into place. I know that the name has been tagged for another role, but IMO it makes more sense for a fighting man.


Zealot

[sblock=Basic progression]HD: d12
BAB: 1:1
BMB: 1:3

The zealot's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Persuasion (Cha), Profession (Wis), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Skill points per level: 4 + Int modifier[/sblock][sblock=Class features]Weapon and Armor proficiency: A zealot is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light and medium armor. He is not proficient with shields.

Inspired Charge (Su): At first level, a zealot gains the ability to make fearsome charging attacks. Using inspired charge is part of a charge action. The zealot adds half his class level to damage rolls that round. He may use this ability a number of times per rest equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

A good zealot is heroic. He may take feats that require turn undead, so long as he meets all their other requirements. A heroic zealot may spend uses of inspired charge when his feats would require him to spend uses of turn undead. An evil zealot is ruthless. He may take feats that require rebuke undead, so long as he meets all their other requirements. A ruthless zealot may spend uses of inspired charge when his feats would require him to spend uses of rebuke undead.

A zealot that is neither good nor evil must choose whether he is heroic or ruthless at first level. Once this choice has been made, it cannot be reversed.

Daunting presence (Ex): While strongly presenting a symbol of his faith, a 2nd or higher level zealot gains his Charisma bonus (if any) to his AC.

Enough talk (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a zealot is always ready for a negotiation to turn sour. He gains a +10 insight bonus to Initiative checks whenever a combat begins during diplomacy. In addition; a heroic zealot gains a +2 sacred bonus to Persuasion checks, and a ruthless zealot gains a +2 profane bonus to Intimidate checks.

Here I stand (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, a zealot can delay the onset of harmful conditions through force of will and physical hardiness. A zealot may use here I stand as an immediate action when one of the following conditions is applied to him: ability damaged, ability drained, blinded, confused, cowering, crippled, dazed, dazzled, dead, deafened, disabled, dying, energy drained, exhausted, fascinated, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, petrified, shaken, sickened, staggered, stunned, or unconscious. That condition does not take effect until the end of the zealot's turn.

A 4th level zealot may use this ability once per rest. At 7th level and every three levels thereafter, he can use it an additional time per rest (up to a maximum of six times per rest at 19th level).

Crucible (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a zealot may use an immediate action to take a 5-foot step after an ally deals enough damage to drop an opponent (typically by dropping it below 0hp or killing it). A zealot may use this ability to take a 5-foot step between his own attacks, including extra attacks from feats such as Cleave.

Stoic resolve (Su): A 6th level or higher zealot gains a +4 bonus to saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities.

Sacrifice (Su): Beginning at 8th level, a zealot's spiritual presence looms large on the battlefield. This ability works differently for heroic and ruthless zealots.
Heroic Sacrifice: An enemy in a heroic zealot's threatened area takes a -2 sacred penalty to melee attacks against his friends. An enemy within 60 feet of a heroic zealot takes a -2 sacred penalty to ranged attacks against his friends. An enemy within 60 feet of a heroic zealot must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the zealot's level) when casting a spell that includes the zealot's friends but not the zealot in the target or area of effect.

Ruthless Sacrifice: An enemy within 60 feet of a ruthless zealot takes a -2 profane penalty to attacks against him. An enemy within 60 feet of a ruthless zealot must make a concentration check (DC 5 + the zealot's level) when casting a spell that includes the zealot in the target or area of effect.
Contagious Fervor (Su): Beginning at 9th level, a zealot's drive inspires his allies in battle. Once per rest, after an ally deals enough damage to drop an opponent (typically by dropping it below 0hp or killing it), the zealot can grant one of his allies an immediate, extra attack. The ally can make the extra attack with any weapon they are currently holding, using their natural attack (if any), or as an unarmed strike. At 12th level, and every three levels thereafter, the zealot can use contagious fervor an additional time per rest (up to a maximum of four times per rest at 18th level), but no more than once per round.

Spritual Armor (Su): At 11th level, a zealot gains damage reduction. A heroic zealot's damage reduction is 5/evil. A ruthless zealot's damage reduction is 5/good. This damage reduction increases to 10 at 15th level and 15 at 19th level. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.

Improved Fervor (Ex): An ally granted an extra attack by a zealot of 14th level or higher using contagious fervor gains a +2 bonus to hit and deals an additional 2d6 damage.

Insatiable Fervor (Ex): Beginning at 17th level, a zealot does not expend a use of his contagious fervor if the attack misses.

Greater Fervor (Ex): The bonuses granted by improved fervor increase to +4 to hit and an additional 4d6 damage.[/sblock][sblock=notes]I'm not sure that evil zealots should be banned from heroism, and good zealots from ruthlessness. This rule is for consistency with other aspects of the game, not necessarily to represent my own views.

I really do intend a zealot to respond to power word, kill with a bold retort and a valiant charge - before falling over dead. (If you blanked on reading the conditions that here I stand works against, yes, "dead" is in there.)

Daunting presence is intentionally ambiguous. "I worship my ancestors and this sword has been in our family for generations. Can I use it as a symbol of my faith?" Sounds fine to me. "I worship the god of swords or something. You have one of those in your game, right? Yeah, I'm gonna use a weapon as my symbol." Uhh... maybe not. A DM should probably plan to hand over a relic that's also a decent magic weapon, but it's not the zealot's birthright. The standard image for this class feature is, of course, the conquistador's sword in one hand and cross in the other. This feature may encourage paladin/zealot multi-classing ("palalot"? "zealadin"? anyway...) but that seems thematically appropriate.

Enough talk is highly situational, but remember that it doesn't have to be the other party that starts a fight. This ability attempts to bridge a character who is both 'face' and 'spearhead'.

The wording on heroic Sacrifice was a struggle. Theme and how it works should be clear by comparison to ruthless sacrifice. The bad guy's anti-spell clause is harder to work around, but easier to break through.[/sblock]
 
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ValhallaGH

Villager
Zealot seems like a Barbarian / Bard hybrid. With a Turn Undead that makes Paladins cry.


Also, being a Baseline isn't a bad thing. It means that you are the standard against which all others must be measured. That's not a slight or insult.
 
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Vespucci

Villager
Zealot seems like a Barbarian / Bard hybrid. With a Turn Undead that makes Paladins cry.
On hybrid-ism, I don't see the relevance. Unless you're saying that this is no different to playing a multi-class barbarian/bard? :-S

Paladins are already crying (or not) over the cleric's turn/rebuke undead, so one more class having access to that will hardly be affecting their mental health.

Also, being a Baseline isn't a bad thing. It means that you are the standard against which all others must be measured. That's not a slight or insult.
You seem to have interpreted me as a 'class partisan'. Actually, I was trying to be objective. :) With regard to the fighter, the bold claim is obviously false from a Trailblazer design perspective. (The game's class 'baseline' is an abstract, though if any class comes close, it's barbarian.) I argued (briefly) that it's also false from a world building perspective. In my view, it's wrong-headed or odd ('bad') to make false claims about something.
 

Vespucci

Villager
I have had a fairly long think about the arcane half-caster who engages in armed combat. We have four editions of heritage for this character: d&d's elf, 1e's fighter/wizard, 2e's kits (most infamously, the bladesinger), 3e's profusion of magic/melee classes and arcane archer. IMO, making this a predominantly melee class violates that heritage (it's fine for characters with levels in the class to focus on melee, but it shouldn't be a basic class function). That does, of course, make the name a bit harder to come up with. :) I'm going to plump for gish. In D&D circles, it no longer means a githyanki with a specific combination of classes. Gish has come to be as generic a term as 'fighter', and I think it's fine for it to be just as specific. ("Hey, my monk is a 'fighter', too!"),

Getting the class features right is giving me fits. To save ValhallaGH the time, it seems like a hybrid Fighter/Monk/Ranger/Wizard with certain class features that make the Paladin cry. :heh: Seriously, though: there are good reasons to opt for 'original combination' rather than 'original design'. It makes balancing features and classes easier, and helps players learn how new classes work.


Gish

[sblock=Basic progression]HD: d8
BAB: 3:4
BMB: 1:2

The gish's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Craft (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill points per level: 4 + Int modifier[/sblock][sblock=Class features]Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Gishes are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields. Armor of any type interferes with the gish's movement, which may cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Spellcaster: At 1st level, the gish gains access to all the spells on the wizard spell list. To ready or cast a wizard spell, a gish must have an Intelligence score equal to 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a gish's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the gish's Intelligence modifier. He receives bonus spell slots and ready spells per rest if he has a high Intelligence score.

A gish's base magic bonus is equal to half his level. A 1st level gish with a base magic bonus of +0 is only able to cast 0th level spells, which take effect at a minimum caster level of 0.

Focused: When wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a shield, a gish is no longer focused. A gish who is not focused loses access to many of his class abilities, including his focused bonus, arcane stance, arcane warrior, and possibly the feats gained from martial training.

While he is focused, the gish gains a bonus to caster level checks equal to half his class level (rounded up).

Arcane Stance: When focused, a gish adds his Intelligence bonus (if any) to his AC. In addition, a gish gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five gish levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

The bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the gish is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, and when he is not focused.

Arcane Warrior: A gish can use his magic to enhance his attacks a certain number of times per rest. At 1st level, the gish chooses either Arcane Armament or Spellstrike.

  • Arcane Armament (Sp): As a standard action, the gish temporarily enchants a weapon he is holding. This grants it a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. This ability lasts for one round per class level. If the weapon leaves the gish's hand, the effect ceases immediately.
  • Spellstrike (Su): The gish channels arcane energy into his attacks, gaining a +1 bonus to hit, dealing an additional 1d6 damage, and treating his weapons as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This ability lasts one round.
The gish can use this ability once per rest. At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th), the gish gains an additional use per rest, up to a maximum of five uses per rest at 20th level.

Martial Training: At 2nd level, a gish gets a bonus feat. The gish gains an additional bonus feat at 4th level and every four gish levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the following list of bonus gish feats:
Combat Casting, Dodge, Far Shot, Greater Manyshot, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Manyshot, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run, Spring Attack, Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, Swift Spell, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
As long as the gish is focused, he can ignore the Dexterity prerequisites of any of his martial training bonus feats. A gish who is not focused loses access to those feats. The gish must still meet all other prerequisites of the chosen feat, including base attack bonus and other feats.

Steeled Mind (Ex): A gish of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers.

Improved Arcane Warrior: At 5th level, a gish's arcane warrior bonuses improve.

  • Improved Arcane Armament: The enhancement bonus is increased to +2. The weapon deals an extra 1d6 acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage (the type is chosen by the gish each time the ability is used, and may not be switched during its duration).
  • Improved Spellstrike: The bonus to hit increases to +2, and the bonus damage dice increase to 2d6. Any creature the gish damages must make a Will save (DC 10 + half the gish's level + the gish's Intelligence modifier) or be dazed.
Martial Focus (Ex): At 6th level, a gish gains martial focus with a chosen specific weapon (for example, glaive, longbow, or rapier). When attacking with the chosen weapon, the gish gains +1 to damage. This increases to +2 at 13th level, and +3 at 20th level.

Arcane Stride (Sp):
A 7th level gish can magically transport a short distance once per rest. The gish arrives at any empty space he can see within 60 feet. This movement takes no time and does not move the gish through any other squares. The gish can bring objects (but not creatures) so long as their combined weight does not exceed his maximum load. Using arcane stride is a swift action.

The gish gains an additional use per rest of arcane stride at 15th level.

Greater Arcane Warrior: At 9th level, a gish's arcane warrior bonuses improve.

  • Greater Arcane Armament: The enhancement bonus is increased to +3. In addition to the 1d6 bonus damage, the weapon deals an additional 1d10 points of damage of that type on a critical hit. If the weapon's critical multiplier is x3, add an extra 2d10 points of damage instead, or, if the multiplier is x4, add an extra 3d10 points.
  • Greater Spellstrike: The bonus to hit increases to +3, and the bonus damage dice increase to 3d6. Creatures that fail their saves are stunned as well as dazed.
Arcane Adjustment (Su): Beginning at 10th level, a gish can incorporate more magic into his attacks.

  • Adjusted Armament: Using arcane armament on a weapon that already has an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is a swift action.
  • Adjusted Spellstrike: When he uses spellstrike, a gish may use one of his spell slots to increase his bonus damage dice. He gets an extra d6 for each level of the spell slot used.
Superior Arcane Warrior: At 13th level, a gish's arcane warrior bonuses improve.

  • Superior Arcane Armament: The enhancement bonus increases to +4.
  • Superior Spellstrike: The bonus to hit increases to +4, and the bonus to damage increases to 4d6.
Exceptional Arcane Warrior: At 17th level, a gish's arcane warrior bonuses improve.

  • Exceptional Arcane Armament: The enhancement bonus increases to +5. The gish may enchant two weapons at once. If he only enchants one weapon, it grants him an additional attack when he takes a full attack action.
  • Exceptional Spellstrike: The bonus to hit increases to +5, and the bonus to damage increases to 5d6. The ability now lasts for two rounds.
[/sblock] [sblock=Notes]It is important that the gish can use most of their class features while wearing mithral chainmail. If I've somehow failed to let them do this, please let me know and I'll go have a cry, then fix it.

The bonus from focused reflects the gish heritage of casting on the defensive. (3.5's bladesinger was even better at doing this!) It also means that spell resistance won't be too crushing.

Martial training takes into account the gish's MAD. (They can dump Charisma and probably Wisdom - everything else is important to them.) I haven't given them the full fighter array.

Steeled mind is a tip of the hat to the races that are most associated with this class.

Arcane warrior kicks in every time the gish doesn't gain a BAB. Greater spellstrike dazes and stuns because some creatures can't be stunned. (I can't think of anything that can't be dazed. I'm comfortable with the gish dazing constructs and undead.)[/sblock]
 
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ValhallaGH

Villager
On hybrid-ism, I don't see the relevance. Unless you're saying that this is no different to playing a multi-class barbarian/bard? :-S
Paladins are already crying (or not) over the cleric's turn/rebuke undead, so one more class having access to that will hardly be affecting their mental health.
What I'm trying to say was that the class seems to fail to fill its intended niche.
It's not a divine-touched martial class. It's a Cleric with a permanent Divine Power spell, and a charge-based Bless instead of normal spell-casting.
Honestly, I'd start by dropping the Turn Undead; Barbarians can't talk to animals. Musashi would Great Cleave through zombies, and de Soto would lock them in the town of rebellious heathens.

By contrast, I like the Gish. The name is terrible but the class seems solid. It does things that no other class can do, with a similar mechanic to a balanced class. Obviously, we've got to see the special abilities to make a final judgement, but it seems like a good start.
 

Vespucci

Villager
What I'm trying to say was that the class seems to fail to fill its intended niche.
It's not a divine-touched martial class. It's a Cleric with a permanent Divine Power spell, and a charge-based Bless instead of normal spell-casting.
Honestly, I'd start by dropping the Turn Undead; Barbarians can't talk to animals. Musashi would Great Cleave through zombies, and de Soto would lock them in the town of rebellious heathens.
I'll have a think about alternate features.

The main reason for giving them Turn Undead (regardless of effectiveness) is to open up the Divine feats. (I'm guessing that the zealot using Divine Might and Divine Vengeance is much less controversial.) It's possible to do that more directly, or to give them a unique class feature that 'counts as' Turn Undead.

Do I also detect a certain reluctance for martial classes to hand out buffs? It doesn't strike me as something outside of the character's thematic niche, but perhaps it is mechanically unsound. (You might be thinking that the zealot couldn't do the job of another martial character on his own. Even if you weren't, it's a fair complaint.)

By contrast, I like the Gish. The name is terrible but the class seems solid. It does things that no other class can do, with a similar mechanic to a balanced class. Obviously, we've got to see the special abilities to make a final judgement, but it seems like a good start.
:lol: Yeah, I think that too. But there is a terrible lack of generic terms for that kind of character.
 

ValhallaGH

Villager
Do I also detect a certain reluctance for martial classes to hand out buffs?
Not at all. I really liked the idea behind the Marshal class (miniatures handbook), just not the implementation. It irks me to no end that a 20th level "specialist" class can be outdone by generic 10th level Cleric. :):):):) CoDzilla.
 

Vespucci

Villager
Not at all. I really liked the idea behind the Marshal class (miniatures handbook), just not the implementation. It irks me to no end that a 20th level "specialist" class can be outdone by generic 10th level Cleric. :):):):) CoDzilla.
OK. Thanks for the feedback. I've re-written most of the class features for the zealot to make him into his own man, and cashed out the gish class features.
 
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