Weird idea on attribute costs

[Anthony Jackson]

Currently, if you decide to play a race without an attribute bonus at your class's primary attribute, you're basically choosing to be inferior. There are a few exceptions where racial abilities compensate for the suboptimal choice, but something like a tiefling fighter is just asking to suck.

So, I had an idea on changing how attributes work:

You start with attributes of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 (distributed as you like). Apply your racial modifiers (so you'll usually have 8, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12), and then pay points for your attributes, based on the difference in cost between your desired attribute and current attribute. Thus, a dragonborn starts with Str 12 and can get an 18 for 14 points, whereas a tiefling who starts with Str 10 has to pay 16 points. Then, to get typical attributes back into the range they're supposed to be, we bump points to 28, and adjust the attribute cost curve slightly:

Stat   8  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19* 20*
Cost  -1   0   1   2   3   5   7   9  12  16  20  25
* Only available if you have a racial bonus to the attribute

Thus, if we take a dragonborn paladin with the Standard Array, he's currently at Str 16+2 (9), Con 12(2), Dex 10(2), Int 11(1), Wis 13(3), Cha 14+2 (5), total 22. Under these rules, his cost is Str 12->18(14), Con 10->12(2), Dex 8->10 (1), Int 10->11 (1), Wis 10->13(3), Cha 12->16 (7), total 28. However, if you decide to be strange and make, say, an Elandrin paladin, we can go with Str 10->18(16), Con 8->13(4), Dex 12(0), Int 12(0), Wis 10->13(3), Cha 10->15(5), total 28. It's not quite as optimal a stat distribution as the dragonborn, but it's a heck of a lot better than the Str 16, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 14 he winds up with under standard rules.

Thoughts? I think it would nicely open out the options for characters, so you'd actually see non-stereotypical race selections, and make feats like Elandrin Weapon Training not totally pointless.

 

[Badapple]

That's an interesting idea.

One side effect (intended?) is it makes it harder for characters that DO choose a race that gives an attribute bonus to their main stat to achieve a score of 20 at first level.

 

[Syrsuro]

All this does is make attribute bonuses meaningless since they are all (except for humans) getting exactly two extra points to spend and any character you can build with one race can be built with any other race (and thus it gimps humans a bit more than any other race). So you might as well just remove the bonus altogether and give them all a couple of extra points (except humans who get two less).

If your goal is to remove differences between the races, it will succeed - they will have no difference in ability scores. And if your goal is to just make it harder to build that uber stat, raise the point buy cost for the higher stat.

But if your goal is to give the players more flexibility, it would be more effective to just let them put the stat where they like (i.e. the human approach, but with both stats).

Or, somewhat better imho, choose one of the two stat bonuses (Dm's choice or player's choice) as 'fixed', but let the player reassign the other bonus to whatever stat he wishes.

Carl

 

[Bison]

I havent really thought this through to much, but what about keeping things as they are but if you want to move a racial bonus stat you can do so, but the new stat gets a +1 rather than a +2.

This way you still get to customize, but with a deterrent that will help to keep the races roughly the way the designers intended

 

[Anthony Jackson]

All this does is make attribute bonuses meaningless since they are all (except for humans) getting exactly two extra points to spend and any character you can build with one race can be built with any other race (and thus it gimps humans a bit more than any other race).

Not quite true. Taking the Elandrin as an example, it doesn't permit Int 10, Dex 10, and if you take Int 10, Dex 12 you wind up getting only 3 bonus points rather than 4. That's not a huge effect, but it's not zero.

As for gimping humans more than any other race: under the current build method, a human is typically behind by at least 2 build points, and often by 4 (if your secondary racial attribute started at 13+). It actually gimps humans less than any other race.

 

[deleteme123456]

So to see if I get this right, your DBorn Pally (original) has
18/12/10/11/13/16

You Eladrin Pally (modified) has
18/13/12/12/13/15

I would do this:
10/10/10/8/10/10 (who needs INT) -> 10/10/12/10/10/10

STR -> 18 (cost 16, remain 12) [fixed in edit]
CON -> 12 (cost 2, remain 10)
DEX -> 12
INT -> 10
WIS -> 14 (cost 5, remain 5)
CHA -> 14 (cost 5, remain 0)

I now have
18/12/12/10/14/14, which I think I would argue is better than your DBorn std array, but let's point buy the DBorn instead of standard array and see...

18/13/10/8/14/16 is a pretty good typical DBorn str-based Pally array

Old point buy can actually make the exact same array for the D-born Pally as the modified Eladrin Pally, so that certainly seems balanced; depending on your meaning of balance.

Again for comparison, the modified DBorn Pally was:
18/12/10/11/13/16

I would do this as
10/10/10/8/10/10 -> 12/10/10/8/10/12.
Str to 18 (14, 14 remain)
Con to 12 (2, 12 remain) [fixed in 2nd edit]
Dex leave (12 remain)
Int leave (12 remain)
Wis to 14 (5, 7 remain)
Cha to 16 (7, 0 remain)
= 18/12/10/8/14/16.

Now if you compare to the standard point-buy, you'll find that the modified build has only 13 wis where the other had 14.

So it seems like this really hurts when you're trying to use both your modifiers, and helps a lot when you aren't using either. Another case worth looking at would be say, a Genasi Pally with STR/INT.
10/10/10/8/10/10 -> 12/10/10/10/10/10
STR to 18 (14/14) [fixed in 2nd edit]
CON to 12 (2/12)
DEX -
INT -
WIS to 14 (5/7)
CHA to 14 (5/2)

With 2 leftover points, it's hard to say what's worth doing. Wis 15 or Cha 15 are choices, Con 13 and Dex 11 (gets +1 initiative at Paragon, OK, not a very compelling argument...). Probably just put it in Wis or Cha.

All under modified: [fixed in various edits]
G: 18/12/10/10/14/15
E: 18/12/12/10/14/14
D: 18/12/10/8/14/16

Original pointbuy:
D: 18/13/10/8/14/16

OK, so it does look like there is still a very slight advantage to having 2 +2s vs none or one, and only a very very tiny advantage to having a single +2 over none, as the Genosi can't really capitalize on the extra STR. What about 16/16/16 builds, instead of 18/16/14 builds... these are doable in the original point buy... will make another post so this one doesn't get even more confusing.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

STR -> 18 (cost 14, remain 14)

Error. Cost is 16. Thus, you actually wind up at 18/12/12/10/13/15 (28)

Dragonborn equivalent: 12->18(14), 10->12(2), 10->12(2), 8->8 (0), 10->13(3), 12->15 (5), total 26. Hey, I can have the 16 Cha.

So it seems like this really hurts when you're trying to use both your modifiers, and helps a lot when you aren't using either.

Well, part of that is that you're doing the math wrong. The way it actually works is that a given attribute set has the same cost for all races unless you want an attribute of less than 12 for something you have a bonus in.

 

[deleteme123456]

OK I double-checked all the math and found that there are definite advantages to still having 2 +2s, but very little benefit from having just one vs having none, if the 2nd is in a dump stat. This means (for example), a DBorn TWF Ranger is basically as good as an Eladrin TWF Ranger (if you consider Dex a useful stat for Blades, etc.)

That all assumes you're aiming for the traditional and popular 18/16/14 type builds. For classes with a real need for 3 (or more!) attributes, 16/16/16 may be more popular. Consider the Paladin who wants STR WIS and CHA to all start at 16 or higher.

Original point buy (control):
DBorn: 16/13/10/8/16/16
Eladrin: Impossible to get 3 16s. Can so 16/11/12/10/13/16 as one alternative.
Elf: Still can't do it. 16/11/12/8/15/16.

We'll use the DBorn's array as the target, sacrificing CON first and WIS 2nd if short, boosting CON first if we have extra (since we won't have enough to boost STR WIS or CHA).

Modified point buy:
DBorn 16/14/10/8/16/16 costs 28 (7 + 5 + 0 + 0 + 9 + 7). Improvement is small but noticable: +1 CON.
Eladrin: 16/11/12/10/16/16 costs 28 (9 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 9 + 9). This is a HUGE improvement over original point-buy with +2 WIS.
Elf: 16/13/12/8/16/16 costs 28 (9 + 3 + 0 + 0 + 7 + 9). Still a nice improvement, with an additional +1 CON and +1 WIS
Dwarf (how does a +2 in your 4th most important stat help?): 16/14/10/8/16/16 costs 28 (9 + 3 + 0 + 0 + 7 + 9). Same as the DBorn now.

Definitely allows for more balanced/MAD characters this way, and 16/16/16/14/10/8 is a very nice array for them if they have 2 +2s in those 16 OR 14 stats. Previous best was 16/16/15/14/10/8 with the +2s in the 16s or 15. So you can get an additional +1 modifier and you just need your +2s in any of 4 stats?

Well, I guess if you really don't want race to matter... or you really crank up the power of the racial feats (which is even more power creep)... then I guess this certainly does that.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

Well, I guess if you really don't want race to matter... or you really crank up the power of the racial feats (which is even more power creep)... then I guess this certainly does that.

I would prefer for race to matter in a 'color' way, rather than a simple mechanical "+1 to X". The Dragonborn still gets his breath weapon, the Elandrin can still teleport, and so on.