D&D 5E Weirdness: The more monsters, the less the XP.

Shadowdweller00

Adventurer
This NEEDS! to be a thing as a father of soon to be 2 a full time worker and an avid gamer of both the virtual and table varieties this would make life so much easier than having to search the manual and spend 2-3mins per monster working out if it could "fit" into my encounter and in what role then re skin it to make sense. I imagine Wotc read these boards and there more than aware that most of there market will be in the same boat as me THIS should be done you would get my monnies!
Hmm. We could probably manage something like that on these boards. A sort of tactical wiki, as it were. Wouldn't be hard copy, of course. I expect personal game experience is very likely to be better and more useful than the designers' thoughts, actually.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Remathilis

Legend
An illustration of what I mean:

A party of four 5th level PCs has a medium encounter threshold of 2000xp. So medium encounters for the party could be:
1 troll - worth 1,800 xp
2 hellhounds - worth 1,400 xp
5 giant spiders - worth 1,000 xp
8 giant wasps - worth 800 xp
20 bandits - worth 500 xp

This wouldn't bother me much, except once you hit level 7+, your choice in "level equivalent" foes becomes thin; you're almost always forced to use lower level foes on your opponents after a while. It'd be nice if we got some decent high-level monsters; but so far all the new monsters from modules (save the unique ones) are all > 6. It gets really hard to throw armies at the PCs encounter after encounter...
 

discosoc

First Post
Bounded accuracy also presents a problem. With my group, there is one character that had full plate by level 3, and has been riding on an AC 23 or 25 (if using a buff) ever since. What this means is that I could never really challenge that player or the group with "several weaker monsters" compared to "fewer stronger monsters" because the weaker stuff all had +3 to +4 to hit, which means the paladin could wade into combat with impunity. Bringing a stronger enemy into the fold makes it so the tank can actually take a little damage once in a while, but then the action economy is so screwed up that the thing dies in 1 or 2 rounds.

They just hit 15 and it's only been recently that I've gotten a hit or two in on him, now that relevant monster CR's are giving me +7 or higher to hit. As a GM, it's been incredibly boring to design encounters for the group, as a result.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
With my group, there is one character that had full plate by level 3, and has been riding on an AC 23 or 25 (if using a buff) ever since.
My HotDQ Paladin is jealous - he didn't get Full Plate until I became the DM (and had to retire his L8 self out of the Field Forces and onto the Council Staff).

If your Tank is not a Paladin, then hit him with magic spells that require a Save rather than an Attack roll.
If he is a Paladin, he gets a bonus to his Saves too. Then you'll have to use physics - falling damage or drowning - on him.
 

discosoc

First Post
My HotDQ Paladin is jealous - he didn't get Full Plate until I became the DM (and had to retire his L8 self out of the Field Forces and onto the Council Staff).

If your Tank is not a Paladin, then hit him with magic spells that require a Save rather than an Attack roll.
If he is a Paladin, he gets a bonus to his Saves too. Then you'll have to use physics - falling damage or drowning - on him.

He's a paladin. Anyway, plate isn't *that* expensive after a few levels of loot and random crap that gets sold, so there's only so much you can generally do to keep it out of their hands. And my point isn't that I have some driving urge to kill or maim him -- only that there's no real threat to combat if he's *never* hit and knows it. Yeah, I can do environmental damage and stuff, but too much of that just looks weird.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
OP:
20 Bandits with Swords are less dangerous than 20 bandits with Shortbows. If your PCs are good at coordination, vary the equipment of intelligent enemies to make them a challenge.

I've also had success with writing a note to myself for coordinated enemy tactics before the game session, so I don't just have everybody do the same simple thing.
Turn 1
Armored Swordsmen: move to block road, ala phalanx
Unarmored Swordsmen: move forwards on both flanks of road
Archers: pepper whoever is in front
Lieutenant: Perception down the road. Call on intruders to surrender
Turn 2
Lieutenant: call out one target
Archers: ready action to FIRE at spellcasting spellcasters
Armored Swordsmen: hold position, counter-attack anybody in your face
Unarmored Swordsmen: surround then CHARGE chosen target
Turn 3+
Lieutenant: shortbow fire from behind shield wall
All others: scrum until individually bloodied then retreat
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Say what you like about 4e, but the encounter construction budgets just plain worked. (Although admittedly solo monsters took a bit of designer familiarity to properly nail down in the end.)
Indeed! 4e encounter guidelines are a thing of elegance and user-friendliness, and I find this issue utterly baffling. It's like the 5e team set out to do exactly what 4e detractors accuse 4e of: Making change for the sake of change, rather than sticking to something that's had its kinks already worked out and has been proven to work.

Maybe good guidelines didn't feel enough like D&D? *shrug*

Unfortunately I don't really know how one could fix the issue properly. Changing the system to include a more group-default encounter budget has all sorts of domino effects - legendary monsters, inflated value of AoE attacks, the hp and hit dice budgets would become too low, etc. Maybe someone more invested in this than I could put such a system on the DMGuild shop or something.
What would get bent out of shape if 5e DMs ignored the guidelines and simply added up the xp values of each enemy the PCs defeat?

But, it's mainly an artifact of Bounded Accuracy: being outnumbered just really sucks in 5e.
Doesn't BA make this even weirder? I.e., if being outnumbered really sucks, shouldn't the groups of monsters generate more xp?

Because there are brand new DMs who have no idea how to build encounters? How do you figure it out without lurching between boring walkovers & TPKs. (In my 1e days when we retired one particular high level campaign we then started a new campaign every couple of weeks as the DM could not get a handle on balancing first level encounters again and wiped us out repeatedly.)
QFT. I've never found eyeballing stuff to be easy for me, or fun for anyone at the table. So good guidelines are worth their weight in gold as far as I'm concerned.

...Make that many times their weight in gold. 'Cause, ya know, it doesn't take many pages to write decent guidelines. So they're pretty light. ;)
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
This is just one of the myriad of things that makes me wonder why WotC even bothers with challenge ratings, encounter building tables and the like. It seems like so many players take them as gospel, follow them to the letter, then get annoyed when they don't work right for their particular group. That group of 20 Bandits against 4 melee PCs makes the battle difficult enough that the XP that they get out of it (due to XP multipliers for large groups) doesn't seem nearly enough... whereas the same 20 Bandit group against 4 PCs that can drop a pair of AoE spells in the middle of them at the top of the battle seems like a cakewalk.

If WotC had just left "encounter building" and "challenge ratings" out of it and just told DMs "figure out what your group can handle and create fights to challenge them"... DMs would build towards their specific party and not just using arbitrary numbers and wonder why they don't work right. It's how DMs always had to do it way back when and we got pretty good at just eyeballing things based on monster stats and XP gained... and it's a skill that too many DMs these days have never really learned how to do.

I'd encourage all DMs to occasionally just put together a random encounter using nothing more than your instincts on what you think your group could handle-- not bothering with any encounter building equations or ratings or anything-- and just see what happens.

Wanting a usable estimate is not anything close to the same as assuming it's gospel. I want at least a vague baseline to start from, so I can then adjust it from there based on the party composition and what I am looking for. Wanting a guideline /= taking it as gospel.
 

…there is one character that had full plate by level 3, and has been riding on an AC 23 or 25 (if using a buff) ever since.
23? How? Plate Armour is 18, a shield would add +2. Where does the additional +3 come from?

The +2 from a buff is good - that means some character used a spell slot. Hit the party with three to five combats a day and watch those spell slots disappear.

What this means is that I could never really challenge that player or the group with "several weaker monsters" compared to "fewer stronger monsters" because the weaker stuff all had +3 to +4 to hit, which means the paladin could wade into combat with impunity.

If a player spent gold on plate armour then they want to wade into combat with impunity. They should get this - some of the time, anyway. The rest of the time those +3 and +4 foes should be targeting the backline party members. Hit the party with ten orcs, five of whom have bows and target the mage. Force the Paladin's player to make a hard choice - attack the big bad (who they can kill in 1 or 2 rounds) or attack the little foes (who can kill the party wizard in 1 or 2 rounds). Make both choices have consequences.
 

This wouldn't bother me much, except once you hit level 7+, your choice in "level equivalent" foes becomes thin; you're almost always forced to use lower level foes on your opponents after a while. It'd be nice if we got some decent high-level monsters; but so far all the new monsters from modules (save the unique ones) are all > 6. It gets really hard to throw armies at the PCs encounter after encounter...

Four CR 5 foes (Elite Drow Warriors, elementals, etc.) remain Hard or Deadly for four PCs right up until level 13. By twentieth level it takes eight of them to make it Hard. Being outnumbered 2:1 hardly constitutes fighting an "army," and there are tons of CR 5ish foes in the MM.

On the other hand, I actually like armies in 5E. Reminds me of the good old Gold Box games.

Bounded accuracy also presents a problem. With my group, there is one character that had full plate by level 3, and has been riding on an AC 23 or 25 (if using a buff) ever since. What this means is that I could never really challenge that player or the group with "several weaker monsters" compared to "fewer stronger monsters" because the weaker stuff all had +3 to +4 to hit, which means the paladin could wade into combat with impunity.

Normally paladins max out at AC 21 (23 with Shield of Faith) so I assume you must have given him a magic shield or something, yes?

If you want to challenge someone with high AC, you can set up the terrain such that the character has to be concerned about enemies Shoving him into quicksand, off cliffs, etc. (After all, even The Dread Pirate Roberts got shoved off a cliff by a girl. "Aaaaaaas yooooouuuuuuu wiiiiiiiiiiiiish!" Inigo couldn't touch his AC but Buttercup got lucky on her Strength (Athletics) roll.) Pushing an enemy into a terrain occupied by some dangerous beast is another variation: maybe the Otyugh doesn't come into play unless someone gets pushed down the slope into the peat bog.

Also, bear traps, caltrops, covered pits, flaming oil, etc., still remain effective no matter what AC is. Not to mention object manipulations like cutting the bridge when someone is halfway across, or dropping a portcullis that isolates one PC from the rest of the party.

Goblins playing hit-and-run (advantage on most attacks due to Nimble Escape) will annoy a PC even if they hit only on a natural 20. Ten goblins means about one crit per turn, and by level 7 the PCs are "expected" to handle about twenty goblins at a time.

The DMG has a Disarm variant rule which I quite like. Even if they can't hit your AC, being disarmed is quite annoying for most pure warriors. The paladin will have to Smite things with his bare hands.

If the other PCs are around, the goblin conga line can just snake past the paladin and hit the squishies. If they are actual goblins wish actual bows, you don't even need to physically move past them, just unload your arrows into the wizard and bard instead. The high-AC character then needs to either respond to that threat, or tell the rest of the party to go ahead while he deals with the threat, in which case the above tactics all apply twice as hard because he now has no support.

I'd argue that you're obligated to include some of this kind of material in your campaign regardless of whether or not someone actually has a stellar AC, so that you're shaping the game world instead of metagaming against a specific PC. Not every adventure has to take place on a windy mountain trail, but consider making goblins prefer windy mountain trails and slimy peat bogs in which to build their warrens because they are so defensible.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top