We're Going To Do Return to the Tomb of Horrors and One Player has Freaked Out!

[Jim Hague]

How can you know somethings crap without trying it? How do you know that the DM in question hasn't changed those save or die effects? Said save or die spells don't make the RttToH, it has plenty of atmosphere, and could easily be ran without them. Not to mention, some of the save or die effects have been nerfed since 2nd edition. It's simply an adventure when you have to be extra cautious, that's all.

Also, the DM went to much more work to get the players where they are now, and has invested much more time into the story of their adventures. I know that I, for one, don't go to all that effort just to slaughter them for fun. If he wanted the campaign to end, he could just as easily tell the players that he's tired of the campaign, and to retire their characters. Why go to all the trouble? I get the feeling that this guy knows what he's doing, and is going to try his best to make the module fun for the players.

Look back, Bryan - it's a 'faithfu' conversion of the original module. That means Epic-scale bad guys, save-or-die effects. It's a meatgrinder. Hell, I've played through it, with a cerebral, information-gathering thief...and asked the DM politely to retcon the whole thing, because getting smacked down repeatedly is not fun. Hell, when I wrote my Regions for WLD, I had the classic TPK modules sitting around a s reference for two things: atmosphere, and how not to write a module.

TOH and RttTOH treat PCs as disposable playing pieces. While I disagree that the player's acting properly (using metagame knowledge is a serious no-no), the DM seems to not understand exactly what the PCs are about to go through - as has been stated, these modules don't come from the current game thinking, they come from a time when it seems like people were just expected to roll up new characters. That's a valid style of play, but after reading the Story Hour for this campaign, I don't think it fits this group.

 

[Bryan898]

So you say that all characters belong to the DM, and if he decides to kill them on a whim, the Players should shut up and stop complaining? Remind me never to play when you're the DM. You don't need us anyway. Players are a distraction from work, anyway...

No, I'm saying that you're mistaking the hard work of the player to create his character for having fun while playing a game. Earlier in the thread, people were agreeing that he be able to complain based on the idea that he shouldn't have to lose his hard-earned character. I'm disagreeing that his character is hard-earned. I'm saying how can you even justify not doing RttToH based on losing all your hard work, when the real one that will lose hard work here is the DM that converted it.

If the DM simply kills them on a whim, yes I could understand arguing. But that's not the case, he's not killing them on a whim. The story wasn't they were walking through the woods when ten liches appeared and killed them all. He simply wants to run an adventure that has a reputation for being dangerous.

Real irony. Someone proving his immaturity by ranting at soneone because he has a different playstile, and then that person tells the rest to "grow up". Hong, is that you in disguise?

Playstyle? Complaining because you're scared that your character will die is a playstyle? I realize they don't play the type of game where you simply roll up a new character. But if the player is scared of his character dying, why doesn't he just not play at all since that's always a threat? Or is it that he trusts in the DM to keep his character alive and well? If so, then why not this time?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The story wasn't they were walking through the woods when ten liches appeared and killed them all. He simply wants to run an adventure that has a reputation for being dangerous.

You're right. The DM is being a little more subtle than that. But not much.

"You walk through the door. Who was the first one through? OK, on the floor is a symbol of death. You die. The rest of you guys should have been smart and looked through the doorway with a mirror before blindly walking through."

 

[Kae'Yoss]

If the DM simply kills them on a whim, yes I could understand arguing. But that's not the case, he's not killing them on a whim. The story wasn't they were walking through the woods when ten liches appeared and killed them all. He simply wants to run an adventure that has a reputation for being dangerous.

Sending them through a module that has a reputation to devastate whole adventuring companies (not "dangerous", but "almost certain TPK"), without apparent link to the story, is a whim. He presents it as the easiest of their options, so they feel they have to go in there because everything else would be metagaming. They're not sent in there to get the fabled Artefact of Aaaaaargh or something.

It may not sound like an open, arbitrary TPK. But it sure sounds like a thinly veiled, arbitrary TPK. "Look boys, I didn't just kill you, you had a chance, it was in the module."

Playstyle? Complaining because you're scared that your character will die is a playstyle? I realize they don't play the type of game where you simply roll up a new character. But if the player is scared of his character dying, why doesn't he just not play at all since that's always a threat? Or is it that he trusts in the DM to keep his character alive and well? If so, then why not this time?

You know there is a difference between calculated risk and certain death. The guy isn't "scared that his character will die". The fact that he played this character all the time, so far as to get him to level 15, should be proof. You usually don't get that powerful without going into danger. But we're not talking about calculated risk here. We talk about a module that has lots of opportunities to die, without a chance. A no-win situation. Everyone who merrily goes into that sort of situation is either weary of life or a complete idiot. It's like accusing someone that he is afraid to drive in any weather but bright sunshine when he refuses to go get some booze in a tornado.

 

[Bryan898]

I spend 99% of my gaming time behind the screen and I disagree with this. First off, if the player is concerned about losing his character I'd be happy someone is actually involved with the game.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy when my players invest time in their characters as well. But not to the point where they're unwilling to even attempt to try something for fear of losing them.

I've been in the situation where the DM expects the players to have deep, creative characters and then runs pre-packaged modules that you'd swear he's never read before game day.

True, but this DM doesn't seem to be that kind of DM. I'd say on a time versus time comparison, the average DM invests more time than the average player. Yes there are exceptions, such as the DM with a pre-packaged module, or the player that writes his story hour.

And while DMs have the greatest control over the campaign, a game where the characters and players have no say in the direction is not a campaign but a railroad.

RttToH is sort of a railroad adventure, if I remember Acerack's motivations correctly, it's a do or die scenario. That being said, if I were to convert a 300+ page module, and the player didn't want to do it because he was scared, I'd be a disappointed. You can't tell me you wouldn't? Especially if they didn't even try it. If they got into it a bit, and thought it was too dangerous, then left, thats all fine. But to not even try...

If that's the campaign climax then something on par with RtToH would be expected but this doesn't read like it is the "grand finale." The characters have other directions the campaign could go and at least half the characters in this person's game are unwilling to return from the dead. In other words, this campaign will be totally hosed unless the DM has totally revamped RtToH and since this is a "Let the dice lay where they fall" kind of DM, the odds of "campaign death" are incredibly high.

Maybe it is what the DM has prepared for the grand finale, and he has revamped it. I don't know, I don't follow the story hour. I did read earlier, about the role-playing reasons that they would be reluctant to come back to life for. But change in some of those cases that if they don't stop X from doing Y, then the world will Z. Suddenly, it becomes a necessity to stop this, would the cleric still not want to return from his deities grace when he has a holy quest to finish? Being a DM that lets the dice fall where they may makes him deadly all the time, but he might have a good hold on whats an appropiate challenge. He will probably understand that if in 2nd edition a room had a great wyrm red dragon, it might be a better idea to change it to a CR more appropiate to the party. I have a feeling that he didn't decide that since a demilich in the ELH is like a CR 27, he'll just keep that version and run it in the adventure, expecting his by then 18th level party to kill it.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy when my players invest time in their characters as well. But not to the point where they're unwilling to even attempt to try something for fear of losing them.

For the last time: We're not talking about "something". We're talking about "something absolutely deadly".

 

[spectre72]

3) Run it blindly as is, and make it even MORE of a meatgrinder.

I would not consider option #3 as a faithful conversion, because it inherently shifts the danger of the adventure.

I have to disagree with your last statement.

TOH was originally designed as a Tournament adventure, complete with pregenerated characters.

If you look at the final encounter and read both the module and the Pregenerated Character sheets it becomes pretty apparent that none of them were meant to live through the adventure :\

The Demilich as written in the module has very restricted ways it can be killed and no one has the weapons that are needed to kill it.

Any of the other methods require knowledge that is not available to the characters because it is very specific to the adventure.

So by adjusting the creatures and character levels you make it more fun for the players, but it drastically alters the way the adventure works.

I just think that this is one of those adventures that should stay what it is and characters should wait until they themselves are EPIC level before attempting.

Sometimes it is OK for characters to get in over their head, only the smart ones know when to come back later

 

[Gentlegamer]

TOH was originally designed as a Tournament adventure, complete with pregenerated characters.

If you look at the final encounter and read both the module and the Pregenerated Character sheets it becomes pretty apparent that none of them were meant to live through the adventure :\

The Demilich as written in the module has very restricted ways it can be killed and no one has the weapons that are needed to kill it.

In the original module, who said you have to fight the demi-lich? Tenser and Robilar sure didn't.

The intro by Gygax for the "Return" describes how a very creative party destroyed the demi-lich using only what was found in the tomb. The DM had to ask Gary if it would work. Gary hadn't thought of it, but didn't see why not. The players earned first place for the tournament . . .

 

[Bryan898]

You're right. The DM is being a little more subtle than that. But not much.

"You walk through the door. Who was the first one through? OK, on the floor is a symbol of death. You die. The rest of you guys should have been smart and looked through the doorway with a mirror before blindly walking through."

Hey hey, there's a save there and you have to be under 150 hp! They failed their save, they deserve to die! You're all complaining about save or die effects... it's like you've never heard of Death Ward or Angelfire armor. It's evident to me that the problem is you're not twinked enough, not the adventure is a killer.

I'll admit, it's a tough dungeon with a high likelihood of death. But, it can also has a lot of atmosphere and is a lot of fun. I played through most of it with a let the dice fall where they may DM, and had a blast, with non-cookie cutter PCs (quite contrary, the favorite PC I ever played). But who's to say this DM didn't convert it to make it a sensible challenge for his PCs? Why is it assumed that he converted Acerack to a CR 4-5+ the party level instead of 32 or whatever in the ELH? I think there's a big difference between letting the dice fall where they may, and being completely crazy and out to get the PCs.

 

[Psion]

While I disagree that the player's acting properly (using metagame knowledge is a serious no-no), the DM seems to not understand exactly what the PCs are about to go through - as has been stated, these modules don't come from the current game thinking, they come from a time when it seems like people were just expected to roll up new characters.

If you were talking about the original Tomb of Horrors, I might agree (but even at the time it was published, ToH was something of an abberation.) But RttToH had a great amount of background, epic plot, and setting development (the academy, etc.)