Were the 80s really the Golden Age of D&D?

[Mercurius]

Well, I can't say for sure, as I couldn't be bothered to buy more books, but I've heard different. As an example, I read someone saying how the rules for vehicular travel (beyond horses..) are in the Adventurers Vault, or something else...

And the rules for pre-industrial lavatories will be in Adventurer's Vault 7, but so what? Again, the keyword is optional. Don't have rules for vehicular travel? Extrapolate or, in other words, make shyt up. Or, even better than pasting on yet more rules, just DM Fiat the sucker.

As a side note, what RPGs out there do you feel are truly complete in one book? I suppose we could cite the Rules Cyclopedia or various non-D&D games like Talislanta 4ed or Artesia or Eclipse Phase. But even with those games, or many of them at least, they come out with supplements. I just don't see how a WotC or a White Wolf could survive without supplements. What would they publish beyond the core book(s)?

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy most of the crunch-focused books (like the Powers stuff), especially with everything available on D&D Insider, but I don't see how WotC could possibly run a business--with a continual revenue stream--without the "supplement model." The only alternative I can think of would be a complete downsizing of the company so that you'd have a few people manning the ship until it got to the other side of the ocean (the next edition), with a long "archipelago" in-between which consists of freelance writers churning out modules and settings. Nothing wrong with that approach either, but it is long way from here to there, and it may happen eventually but it doesn't make the current model inherently wrong.

 

[Ariosto]

So, what D&D-game stuff did TSR mostly sell in the 1980s? Yes, the "core" game itself! And yes, dungeon modules!

How could that possibly work? Well, see, sales were to more than just people who had gotten into D&D prior to 1979. There was this curious thing called a growing market. For that matter, people who stuck with the "little brown books" were (and are) part of the market for Basic and Advanced modules -- and 1E DMs for good 2E stuff. But the really big deal was the continuing influx of new players.

I'm sure there were some AD&Ders who rushed out to get the new D&D line, maybe just unable to resist the Erol Otus covers. And maybe there were some already possessing those volumes who bought revised Basic and Expert sets a few years later. I doubt that they accounted for more than a minority of sales of those, though, or even of the Companion and Masters and Immortals sets.

Fiend Folio, I think, sold very well, the "orange spine" supplements not so much ... but I would gladly stand corrected. From what I saw, though, they kept selling from year to year. So did the "big three" (MM, PHB, DMG).

Even after 2E was released, retailers kept selling 1E core books as long they were able to get them in the first place.

 

[pawsplay]

Well, now it's in all the chain bookstores like Borders and B&N. Those are more common in my area than Toys R Us. I'd probably call that a wash as far as buyability.

D&D was also in chain bookstores in the 80s. Heck, you could buy Talislanta at B. Dalton, and I punchased dozens of Crossroads Adventures, D&d-based game books and so forth from Waldenbooks in the 80s.

Try this one: name major market share roleplaying games currently in existence that were not first published in some form in the 1980s. I can think of Rifts (1990) and Vampire (1991). Mutants & Masterminds might qualify.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And even RIFTS was based off of elements & mechanics that appeared in earlier Palladium products.

 

[Mistwell]

So, what D&D-game stuff did TSR mostly sell in the 1980s? Yes, the "core" game itself! And yes, dungeon modules!

They sold a ton of miniatures, and a bunch of toys as well. And, a lot of other games. And became the largest seller of fantasy books. And a bunch of other stuff.

 

[Ariosto]

Well, now it's in all the chain bookstores like Borders and B&N. Those are more common in my area than Toys R Us. I'd probably call that a wash as far as buyability.

Well, then it was in all the chain bookstores, too! And the independent bookstores (remember those?). And hobby shops (remember those?) And Sears. And the Whole Earth Catalog. And a local high-end housewares and stationery shop ...

 

[Stormonu]

I'd have to go with the 80's being a golden age, at least for D&D. I bought my first D&D stuff at Kaybee Toys and then Toys-R-Us because they were too expensive at Waldenbooks. There was also the D&D cartoon and the D&D toys. The game was very much growing by leaps and bounds. I think that the release of Dragonlance even helped to revitalize the game somewhat when it came out. Where I was 2E was received positively, and the game seemed to be cranking on along, at least up through the release of the Psionics Handbook. By about the release of Maztica though, I should've started to notice the warning signs - books staying on the shelves at hobby and book stores, the grumblings about TSR being "too old-fashioned", complaints of book glut and whatnot.

In the '90s, where I was, I saw White Wolf and its ilk take on a growing popularity as 2E seemed to languish. For me, the realization something was wrong was when I went to my local Con to find practically the only game being played was this new thing called Magic. No one was running RPG games; everyone was competing in card tournaments. D&D was practically dead in my area by 1993.

3E revitalized that, at least for a brief time, but the 3.5E release killed a lot of interest. 4E seems to have fared no better. Of the five gaming groups I know of that started a 4E campaign, all of them are indefinite haitus - with most groups having gone back to 3.5 (and mine switching over to World of Darkness).

P.S.: If you look at the 1E books, you'll see there was a 3-year gap between the core three books and the next book that came out (Deities & Demigods, I believe). 1E books came out as a trickle.

 

[jdrakeh]

Well, then it was in all the chain bookstores, too! And the independent bookstores (remember those?). And hobby shops (remember those?) And Sears. And the Whole Earth Catalog. And a local high-end housewares and stationery shop ...

Yes, but most of that product was allegedly returned — not sold — which is what led to Random House calling in TSR's debt to them, an amount that TSR could not pay.

 

[Mistwell]

P.S.: If you look at the 1E books, you'll see there was a 3-year gap between the core three books and the next book that came out (Deities & Demigods, I believe). 1E books came out as a trickle.

Nope.

Monster Manual (1977),
Players Handbook (1978),
Dungeon Master’s Guide (1979),
Deities & Demigods (Legends & Lore) (1980),
Fiend Folio (1981),
Monster Manual II (1983),
Unearthed Arcarna (1985),
Oriental Adventures (1985),
Wilderness Survival Guide (1986),
Dungeoneer’s survival guide (1986),
Manual of the Planes (1987)

And then of course lots of other "books" such as modules, settings, novels, accessories, etc..

I think it's enlightening to glance at the full list of books TSR put out, even early on. It's FAR more than I think most people remember. Heck, this is just the D&D list:

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/09/d-product-chronology.html

 

[Ariosto]

They sold a ton of miniatures, and a bunch of toys as well. And, a lot of other games. And became the largest seller of fantasy books. And a bunch of other stuff.

Yes, indeed! It would be easy to get sidetracked with comparisons that are not so relevant. WotC has also sold D&D-brand miniatures (the factory-painted plastic ones reasonably falling into the "toy" category, I think), Forgotten Realms novels and other such stuff.

TSR's diversity is striking, but I don't think it was even for D&D that Hasbro acquired WotC -- the collectible card games are, I am pretty sure, relatively H U G E business.

the first cross-genre games like RIFTS, TORG and Shadowrun

Whoa, back up! Kevin Siembieda's very first Palladium game, back in the '80s, had giant robots and cyborgs and space ships and psionics and magic: the Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy!