Weretiger ECL 1 ?!?!?

[Setanta]

I think a weretiger is easy +10 ECL. Playtesting may show that to be too low, though. Compare it to an ogre at ECL +8 (from the Dragon article), and it is considerably better. More HD, much better stats, damage reduction, shapechanging, powerful natural attacks, scent, increased speed, etc. There were a couple long threads a while back that demonstrated that the ogre is balanced at ECL +8, so clearly the weretiger should be higher. The more I think about it, Mangrum's +12 is probably appropriate. Of course, this is assuming the player can control the lycanthropy. If not, it's probably not a suitable PC race, but who knows.

cthuluftaghn- If the player wants a werekitty and you don't want it to break the campaign, you might check out Arthaus' Denizens of Darkness, which includes templates for werejaguars and wereleopards. Both are still quite powerful, but they're closer to being in line with the power level you're for. Of the two, I think the leopard makes a much better PC race as it has a hybrid form, but as such it's probably too powerful to be in the ECL +4/+5 range that would fit for you.

 

[Iku Rex]

I think a weretiger is easy +10 ECL.

I think not. Pick the class you feel weretigers are best suited for. Then we can look at the numbers.

More HD,

Nope. You use either the animal's hit dice (6) or the character's. And you can't create a weretiger PC with less than 6 character levels.

much better stats

...provided you are in animal or hybrid shape.

damage reduction

At 16th+ level (the earliest level you would allow a weretiger) a minor DR like that isn't going to matter. An enemy that can't defeat your DR isn't a threat anyway.

... shapechanging

Since your equipment doesn't change with you this is a very minor ability.

powerful natural attacks,

Unless you have some way to make them magical, they are almost useless. And at 16th level, three natural attacks won't measure up to a straight fighter's four two-handed blows with his powerful magic weapon.

scent, increased speed, etc.

Weretigers have some nice abilities, yes.

There were a couple long threads a while back that demonstrated that the ogre is balanced at ECL +8,

I doubt it. +5 seems low, but +8 is too high. I haven't read the Dragon article, but IIRC they intentionally "overcompensated" to keep players from choosing monster races.

 

[kreynolds]

I doubt it. +5 seems low, but +8 is too high. I haven't read the Dragon article, but IIRC they intentionally "overcompensated" to keep players from choosing monster races.

Actually, the ECLs in that article were just rough guestimates. Very little research went into those ECLs. The intent of the article was to receive gamer feedback to determine the ECLs. In other words, they wanted the gamers to help do the work.

 

[Iku Rex]

Actually, the ECLs in that article were just rough guestimates. Very little research went into those ECLs.

Maybe that's what I remember. If if they didn't bother to "do the math" they no doubt erred on the side of caution. Nobody wants angry DMs complaining about how "your stupid article ruined my campaign".

 

[Setanta]

Iku Rex-
I just read the DMG p.23 rule that you had previously mentioned, and I see its impact now. I was thinking a 6th level weretiger would have 6d10+6d8 HD, with the corresponding BAB that goes along with the extra 6d8 HD. If a 6th level weretiger fighter only has 6d10 and BAB 6, then the weretiger is not +10 ECL IMHO.

Still, I think a weretiger would make a very powerful ranger or barbarian, and a deadly rogue if the ECL is too low. In hybrid form, it has reach, improved grab, awesome strength, and large size, so it's going to win most grapples against common opponents, and then with its opponent denied dex, it can add sneak attack damage to rakes against its grappled foe.

 

[0-hr]

so it's going to win most grapples against common opponents, and then with its opponent denied dex, it can add sneak attack damage to rakes against its grappled foe.

From the SRD:

A combatant loses it's Dexterity bonus to AC (if a it has one) against opponents a it isn't grappling. (A combatant can still use the bonus against opponents the combatant is grappling.)

 

[Setanta]

Huh. Missed that part about "opponents it isn't grappling". Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[cthuluftaghn]

Thanks everyone!

Wow! I step out of the conversation for a day or two, and this becomes a hot-topic. Thank you all for the input. The final decision for my campaign is as follows:

Character will start off as an ECL +1 human/weretiger with ONLY the following attributes:
+4 on listen, spot and search, and +2 FORT
Uncontrolled Alternate Form only on full moon
WILL save DC 20 to control actions in animal/hybrid form

The follwing benefits of a weretiger can be taken as feats during level advancement:
Controlled Alternate Form
Rake
Improved Grab (pre-req Rake)
Pounce (pre-req Improved Grab)

At level 2 she'll gain Tiger Empathy
At level 5 she'll gain Curse of Lycanthropy
At level 10 she'll gain Scent
At level 13 she'll gain Damage Reduction 15/silver
(Meaning combined class-levels, ECL non-inclusive)

Of course, comments are welcome, but that's what we came up with and agreed upon during character creation, so that's what we're gonna go with either way... like it or not

Thanks again for the interest and input, everyone!

 

[Xarlen]

I have to wonder how useful the Tiger Empathy is gunna be...

 

[cthuluftaghn]

That's why it's awarded at level 2. I figured it the least useful, myself.