Weretouched Master (Eberron)

[Diirk]

So I was looking at this Shifter PrC and it sounded kinda nifty, but then I noticed a couple of things. Firstly, the Alternate Form ability you get at level 5 in the PrC isn't shifting... now while the Frightful Shifting ability you get at 4th specifies 'a weretouched master gains an unsettling presence when he uses his shifting ability or his alternate form ability' nothing else related to shifting has similar qualifications. Therefore I'm forced to conclude that in order to transform into an animal or hybrid, you're giving up the use of almost every single class ability and shifting related feat (at least 3) which you've gained throughout your career!.

Now as shifting uses per day is 1 + 1/2 per shifting feat, all of a sudden you've got a bunch of already limited feats that suddenly do even less. Now, I like the fact that alternate form becomes an alternative to, but not a replacement for shifting... but the cost seems awfully high.

On a side note I'd prefer it if the alternate forms were a little more balanced, too. Tiger and Bear are the clear winners there, it makes me feel almost too guilty to take either of them ;/

PS. Hybrid form is really poorly defined. I guess you could extrapolate it from the lycanthrope section from the MM, but would it have killed them to spell it out under the class description? To make things worse, their sample character (a 5th level weretouched master) isn't even listed as having the Alternate Form ability, so thats no help either !

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Could you, perchance, post the Alternate Form ability?

EDIT:

Also, there's this Errata:

Page 86: Weretouched Master
Add the following text to the weretouched master’s Alternate Form ability description:

Assuming an alternate animal or hybrid form is a standard action that requires the weretouched master to spend one of his daily uses of the shifting ability. However, assuming an alternate animal or hybrid form is not the same as "shifting" and does not impart any of the benefits of shifting.

For example, a razorclaw shifter does not gain any of his razorclaw shifter traits upon assuming an alternate animal or hybrid form.

A weretouched master cannot use his shifting ability while in alternate form. He can remain in animal or hybrid form until he decides to revert to his natural form (also a standard action).

 

[Diirk]

The errata doesn't really contain anything I didn't already infer (with the exception of it being a standard action rather than a free action like shifting.. ouch !). Here's the Alternate Form ability.

Alternate Form (Su): At 5th level, a weretouched master can assume the animal for or hybrid form related to his lycanthrope heritage (the same animal selected at 1st level). Instead of using his normal shifting ability, he can shift into animal form as tho using the polymorph spell on himself, though his gear is not affected, he does not regain hitpoints for changing form, and only the specific animal form indicated for the lycanthropic heritage can be assumed.
The weretouched master does not assume the ability scores of the animal, but instead add's the animal's ability adjustments (see the following table) to his own ability scores. A weretouched master can also assume a bipedal hybrid form with prehensile hands and animalistic features. In hybrid form, he can use weapons and armour.
A slain weretouched master reverts to his humanoid form, although he remains dead. Seperated body parts retain their animal form, however.

Animal     Ability Adjustments (Animal or Hybrid Form)
Bear       Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8
Boar       Str +4, Con +6
Rat        Dex +6, Con +2
Tiger      Str +12, Dex +4, Con +6
Wolf       Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4
Wolverine  Str +4, Dex +4, Con +8

If you go by the lycanthrope description of hybrid forms from the MM then they'd get the stat adjustments, a possible size change, natural weapons, natural armour, none of the animals special abilities.
However the above text from weretouched master almost suggests that they be treated exactly the same as the base shifter form, except more animalistic looking, and adjusted stats.

Given that, if you take a form other than bear or tiger (or sometimes wolverine -- that rage can hurt as much as it helps) alot of the time you'd be better off shifting instead of taking alternate form..

 

[Liquidsabre]

Yea I don't get the weretocuhed master. Why would anyone ever take anything besides the best forms (tiger & bear)? Doesn't look balanced across forms there. Not good.

 

[Klaus]

The official opinion on WTM is:

Yes, Bear and Tiger are more powerful. If you want raw combat power, go with bear or tiger. If you have a character concept in mind, like the heir of a wererat crime lord of the past, go with something else.

 

[Tetsubo]

The official opinion on WTM is:

Yes, Bear and Tiger are more powerful. If you want raw combat power, go with bear or tiger. If you have a character concept in mind, like the heir of a wererat crime lord of the past, go with something else.

If I were to ever play a Shifter this would be a must have PrC. And purely for personal reasons I would pick Bear. Luckily Bear rocks...

I do think that the less powerful choices should have some balancing abilities. I'm just not that great at creating such rules.

 

[Darkness]

I do think that the less powerful choices should have some balancing abilities. I'm just not that great at creating such rules.

Keith Baker suggests the following (relevant part bolded by me):

I will try to get to more questions as soon as I have a moment -- I know there's a growing backlog. So hang in there, and I'll get to everything in time. I would like to address a question that's been asked elsewhere on this board and others, though: "What's with the bear weretouched master?"

First, I did not design the abilities for the weretouched master myself, so I cannot speak to this personally. But I can give my thoughts into why things are the way they are, and what I would do about it in my campaign.

The goal of the weretouched master is to allow a shifter to come closer to his lycanthropic heritage. As a result, the ability modifiers of the 5th-level alternate form feature are not balanced. They are not supposed to be balanced. This *is* the alternate form ability of the lycanthrope, and it exactly duplicates the modifiers found on page 178 of the 3.5 Monster Manual. A bear is stronger than a rat, and that's just how it is. If the bear was weaker or the rat was stronger, it would not be a fair representation of the lycanthrope -- which is what the class is all about.

However, saying "nature isn't balanced" isn't going to please folks who will say "but games should be." I like wererats, personally; obviously I don't want people to feel that they can't play a rat shifter without being screwed. I would not change the bear, but I might give the weaker animals a "Weretouched III" ability -- looking to the wereform and trying to find an additional minor ability that could be added to suppliment the lesser stats. For example, a wererat might gain darkvision (which all lycanthropes normally have) when shifted, gain the ability to spread filth fever with its bite, or gain Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. These are just off-the-head ideas; I have not sat down and really thought about balancing all of the shapes. And this is NOT something that should be considered to be errata; again, it serves its purpose of duplicating the existing stats of the lycanthropes, which is what the designer of the PrC was trying to do. But if you want to make a house rule, that's what I'd do.

As a side note, I'm not concerned with the power of the bear. Yes, that +16 strength is impressive. But to get alternate form, you need to be at least 10th level, putting you on a par with a druid being able wild shape (large) and or the power to cast a 5th level spell (or a 4th level spell, like polymorph). You can get a +16 str for a few rounds (remember, it's tied to shifting) -- your buddy the wizard can perform baleful polymorph, and the cleric can raise the dead. You've chosen a class with a moderate BAB, 2 skill points/level, and no spell progression to get that cool ability. But I'd like the other forms to get the same level of power.

 

[Diirk]

As a side note, I'm not concerned with the power of the bear. Yes, that +16 strength is impressive. But to get alternate form, you need to be at least 10th level, putting you on a par with a druid being able wild shape (large) and or the power to cast a 5th level spell (or a 4th level spell, like polymorph). You can get a +16 str for a few rounds (remember, it's tied to shifting) -- your buddy the wizard can perform baleful polymorph, and the cleric can raise the dead. You've chosen a class with a moderate BAB, 2 skill points/level, and no spell progression to get that cool ability. But I'd like the other forms to get the same level of power.

Well the moderate BAB is almost irrelevant.. you lose 2 BAB over 5 levels, but chances are your other classes will be full BAB (ranger/barbarian). Mmmm, raging werebear goodness... although I'd like to point out that his idea of adding a weretouched III ability for some of the forms again makes alternate form useless, as it is not shifting and thus the benefits wouldn't apply. Why waste a standard action taking alternate form when you can isntead free action shift for slightly lower stats but vastly superior abilities ? And your feats will actually work !

 

[Plane Sailing]

My solution to this problem is to grant a longer stay in the alternate form for the less powerful forms. Tiger and Bear have the standard duration (1r per level?) the wolverine and boar have a longer duration (1 min/level) and the wolf and rat have the longest duration (10min/level).

This seemed to balance them out a bit more and I can rationalise it easily too.

Cheers

 

[Diirk]

The duration is 3 rounds + new con modifier + 1 round extra per shifter feat. (You know, those feats that don't do anything for you anymore). You can shift/alternate form once per day + once extra per 2 shifter feats you have.