D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[jayoungr]

Psionics, in my setting, are not bound by the rules of common magic. Dispel Magic, Detect Magic, Counterspell, Antimagic Shell ... these spells do not interact with psionics because those spells interact with and attack the spell weave - and psionics have nothing to do with the spell weave.

So ... is there any equivalent thing that will negate psionics?

 

[Ancalagon]

I mean divine magic is 'just spells'. But we have a separate cleric class. Nature magic is 'just spells' but we have a separate druid class.

Psionics has an even bigger excuse to be different as it's not historically used the vancian casting spell slot system, but for some reason it's now just shoved into subclasses.

Even the sorcerer gets its own class, and it's a discount wizard with a feat glued to it.

If it's all 'just spells' why not axe the warlock, sorcerer, druid, bard, and cleric. And make a single 'magic user' class. It's all just the same magic right?

I would go further: ladle

your race is ladle. Your class is ladle. You fight ladle monsters with your bludgeoning ladle to gain ladle coins. You have one stat: ladle.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I would go further: ladle

your race is ladle. Your class is ladle. You fight ladle monsters with your bludgeoning ladle to gain ladle coins. You have one stat: ladle.

View attachment 154242

is that a dino ladle?

 

[Jer]

I would go further: ladle

your race is ladle. Your class is ladle. You fight ladle monsters with your bludgeoning ladle to gain ladle coins. You have one stat: ladle.

View attachment 154242

Can't fool me - that's not a ladle that's a brontosaurus!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Can't fool me - that's not a ladle that's a brontosaurus!

I have a tea strainer that looks like this.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

But there is also a group that actively wants psionics to work like magic, because it results in a simpler system with a shallower learning curve. You can just roll up a psion and apply your wizard-playing skills, and it'll mostly work.

That group already has their way. Refluff the wizard or any of the other glut of classes that use spells. Just slap psi on any spell and call it a day. Why does the man who's already eaten get to belly up for seconds before the rest of us get a single serving?

My hope is that Wizards finds a way to please both groups, introducing a system that achieves that qualitative difference while also being easy to learn. The fact that they have spent years hacking on the psionics rules suggests they are reluctant to just take the easy path and slap a coat of psi-paint on the "full caster" template, so I think that hope is not a doomed one.

Why should they split the difference and make something watered down to appeal to people who already have the exact thing they want?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I've been watching Critical Role campaign III, and Imogen, who's an aberrant mind sorcerer definitely comes across as a psion. She has some feats and little homebrewing to support the theme, but it works just fine.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I've been watching Critical Role campaign III, and Imogen, who's an aberrant mind sorcerer definitely comes across as a psion. She has some feats and little homebrewing to support the theme, but it works just fine.

She certainly does. However, I would argue that the fact that she does have feats and homebrewing indicates that the concept is not adequately supported.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

She certainly does. However, I would argue that the fact that she does have feats and homebrewing indicates that the concept is not adequately supported.

Sure. But at least to me it demonstrates that the required amount of extra crunch is far, far below 'entirely separate alternate magic system.'

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure. But at least to me it demonstrates that the required amount of extra crunch is far, far below 'entirely separate alternate magic system.'

Required? Perhaps. But I'd still feel more comfortable with a full class. The Level Up psion works for me.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Required? Perhaps. But I'd still feel more comfortable with a full class. The Level Up psion works for me.

A class, perhaps. But I absolutely would not want the amount of extra parallel rules in 5E that the Level Up Psion has. That sort of added complexity and having slightly different spells simply to me is just confusing and unneeded. The character's flavour is not depended on such mechanical details that do not actually come across in the resulting fiction in a meaningful way.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A class, perhaps. But I absolutely would not want the amount of extra parallel rules in 5E that the Level Up Psion has. That sort of added complexity and having slightly different spells simply to me is just confusing and unneeded. The character's flavour is not depended on such mechanical details that do not actually come across in the resulting fiction in a meaningful way.

One person's yuck is another person's yum, I suppose.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

One person's yuck is another person's yum, I suppose.

Sure. I don't really see mechanical complexity for its of sake as a plus, which is why I'm rather lukewarm about Level Up even though I could use an updated version of 5E. I would prefer a steamlined version over one that adds more complexity.

 

[Guest 7034872]

One person's yuck is another person's yum, I suppose.

It's the only way I was ever able to explain my father's love for blood sausages and Brussels sprouts.

Me, I'd be happy with a psion as a distinct class or with psionic elements of a lesser kind salted throughout the extant classes: the thing I don't want to see is the psionic abilities becoming so OP they overshadow the rest of the game: this was the exact problem friends and I encountered in 1e. So long as it's reasonably balanced, I'd enjoy a distinct psion class. Lots of complexity probably wouldn't bother me, either, but I do think it'd be a bad idea insofar as WotC wants to extend the game's reach as far and wide as possible, and needlessly baroque rules systems undermine that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure. I don't really see mechanical complexity for its of sake as a plus, which is why I'm rather lukewarm about Level Up even though I could use an updated version of 5E. I would prefer a steamlined version over one that adds more complexity.

In 2024 you're likely to get your wish.

I don't feel LU's complexity is there for its own sake. More choices for your PCs, more interesting monsters across the board, a fantastic origin system for character creation, and an actual exploration pillar are the things that drew me to the game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's the only way I was ever able to explain my father's love for blood sausages and Brussels sprouts.

Me, I'd be happy with a psion as a distinct class or with psionic elements of a lesser kind salted throughout the extant classes: the thing I don't want to see is the psionic abilities becoming so OP they overshadow the rest of the game: this was the exact problem friends and I encountered in 1e. So long as it's reasonably balanced, I'd enjoy a distinct psion class. Lots of complexity probably wouldn't bother me, either, but I do think it'd be a bad idea insofar as WotC wants to extend the game's reach as far and wide as possible, and needlessly baroque rules systems undermine that.

This is why I don't believe we're going to see any more psionics from WotC. They are too dedicated to the cult of simplicity to bother.

 

[Guest 7034872]

This is why I don't believe we're going to see any more psionics from WotC. They are too dedicated to the cult of simplicity to bother.

I think that's probably right (unfortunately). The whole thing was fraught right from its beginning, and it seems they've never figured out a version of it that doesn't become madly OP and/or baroque. The 2017 mystic class was their last real effort at it, and those things are.....demigods.

 

[Staffan]

Sure. But at least to me it demonstrates that the required amount of extra crunch is far, far below 'entirely separate alternate magic system.'

It depends on your goal. If your goal is to have this one character that's kind of like a psion if you squint a little, sure. If you want a setting where psionics plays a major part (like Dark Sun, or parts of Eberron), you need to have the ability to create psions that differ from one another just as much as different wizards do, you need at least one class which should ideally have multiple sub-classes.

 

[Carlsen Chris]

They’re just different spells. They’re spells, but from a different source and maybe a lil weird, but not really that special. Near as I can tell. I am sure I’m missing something because every time Dark Sun comes up there’s a grip ton of hand wringing about getting Psionics right. It just seems like spells to me. Spells with a different but not much different rule system. Sorcerer, but with unique spells. I don’t get why it’s a big deal and why it’s not just a different spell list. Help me understand. Or confirm, it’s just spells With a new name.

Why don't you do some research first before asking?

 

[Minigiant]

Sure. But at least to me it demonstrates that the required amount of extra crunch is far, far below 'entirely separate alternate magic system.'

Required? Depends one what you can psionics. Thecurrnt model doesn't do psionic effects well because it doesn't do intricate and fine controlled telepathy, telekinesis, sensing, etc and it likely can't be replicated in spells of current classes without breaking them.

So like this discussion has bounced to often, the "requirement" is more linked to which psychic powers the fan wishes to have. If you don't really care about psionics,your bar is low and 5e meets it. If you do care a lot, 5e is severely lacking.