D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Maxperson]

So after 58 pages, I’m gonna go with my OP idea, they’re just spells. It’s a thing you can do on your turn. Like whacking someone with an axe, or dropping a fireball. Psionics in 5e are always gonna be just another attack and not weird or special in some other way. It might be greatly themed in some way, but just another POW. Gotcha. So stop pretending Psionics are anything else? I mean I know you won’t, but yawn at this point.

Why would I pretend that psionics with unique mechanics are just like normal spellcasting?

 

[James Gasik]

Personally, I love how people who don't like psionics are always happy to drop by to tell you that there's nothing special about them, and wanting them to be anything special is boring. You have to love how reductive "just another attack" "Like whacking someone with an axe or dropping a fireball" actions in the game are described. Like, apparently, the real boring thing here isn't psionics, it's D&D itself!

I mean, everything you do on your turn is just an attack, man! It's not like you could:

Aid an ally.
Drink a potion.
Pick a lock.
Attempt to negotiate with an enemy.
Turn invisible.
Create a bank of fog to flee combat.
Turn a random pile of junk into weapons and armor for an entire village.
Teleport across the multiverse.
Heal a fallen friend.

It's all just attacks, man. Stop pretending otherwise. Yawn.

Well, there's no real point in discussing anything with someone who lacks imagination. It's like, the ability to do anything beyond "swing a sword" has to be magic, and all magic is exactly the same, and can never be anything different or special is so ingrained in some people that it's hard to even call this a "fantasy role-playing game"!

Imagine a class that uses a resource that isn't spell slots to allow for fantastic effects. Maybe it's galvanizing your body to perform superhuman feats. Or rendering an opponent unable to act, stupefied to the point of near-paralysis. Firing bolts of energy from your hands, or warping the elements around you. Allowing you to vanish from sight by controlling nearby shadows. Is there any problem with a class like this? Does it ruin your fantasy that something like that exists, or that people would find it fun?

I sure hope not, since I just described the Monk.

 

[Aldarc]

So after 58 pages, I’m gonna go with my OP idea, they’re just spells. It’s a thing you can do on your turn. Like whacking someone with an axe, or dropping a fireball. Psionics in 5e are always gonna be just another attack and not weird or special in some other way. It might be greatly themed in some way, but just another POW. Gotcha. So stop pretending Psionics are anything else? I mean I know you won’t, but yawn at this point.

My issue is not with psionics being "just spells," but, rather, the all-too-common follow-up argument that if/since psionics are just spells that there should not be psionics or a psionic-themed class in the game. This is where I have serious disagreement. I do not want to play a Sorcerer or Wizard in order to play the psychic/psionic archetype. I do not want the baggage of inappropriate spells, spellbooks, and the like on my psion/psychic.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Lots of people would rather to follow a different fashion style, to mark their own personality, and because everybody wearing the same clothing would be really boring.

I want to play a psionic because this is different, not like wizards, sorcerers or warlocks. Psionic was a class years before the warlock or the artificer.

Playing the mystic as a sorcerer with a pool of psionic power points? After some time I can accept if the design is right. I support something like the archetypes of pathfinder, variant classes where some class features can replaced with options.

I love the concept of the psionic ardent class because this has got a faboulous storytelling potential as frienemy of the divine spellcasters, with a love-hate relation.

And psionic mystics may set very well in settings based in the different Asian cultures.

 

[jgsugden]

So after 58 pages, I’m gonna go with my OP idea, they’re just spells. It’s a thing you can do on your turn. Like whacking someone with an axe, or dropping a fireball. Psionics in 5e are always gonna be just another attack and not weird or special in some other way. It might be greatly themed in some way, but just another POW. Gotcha. So stop pretending Psionics are anything else? I mean I know you won’t, but yawn at this point.

That was ... toxic. Telling people what their opinion must be is out of bounds. You can decide what you believe. But you can't tell others what to think and then deride them if they do not obey your demands.

There have been a lot of threads that explain ways that psionics can be used that do not conform to your limited vision. I have 40 years of experience that runs counter to your belief - and others have provided a lot of other variations on the theme. You can decide that you're incapable of seeing psionics as anything other than spells, but so many people here have demonstrated that there is a lot more to be explored.

 

[Minigiant]

Like I said well in the beginning of this thread, Psionics as Spells is fine if you are wiling to create dozens of spells for Psionics and at least 1 class with the heavier connection to the mind.

You could do something like this in 5e with a class list or OneD&D with a Psionics list. But WOTC would have to create dozens of spells that they intend only to be used by the psionic classes (and maybe the bard and warlock via secrets/patron)

Psionics is one of those things where you either go very small, really big, or aviod at all costs.

 

[Oofta]

For me the source and mechanics are important. All spellcasters except for psions draw power from outside. Bards, wizards, sorcerers and other arcane casters draw magic from the weave and the magic of the world. Druids, paladins, rangers and clerics draw through the weave from divine sources. Psions draw on their own personal power, so while their powers may be similar to spells, they access them a bit differently.

Using an existing class doesn't work for a psion. It can't work for a psion.

TLDR: spells tap into magic that suffuses the world (e.g. the weave in FR), psionics does an end run around reality. So?

Depends on how you define the source. For example Paladins draw upon the power of their oath and conviction. They may be dedicated to a deity, they do not have to be. Let's take a look at the description of magic in the PHB spellcasting chapter: "In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect — in most cases, all in the span of seconds."

So you say that psionics doesn't do that. Okay, cool. What power source do they draw on? Because "the mind" does not seem like enough. We don't have psionics in the real world (as far as we know) because of conservation of energy, you can't have events and state changes that spontaneously happen without some source of energy. That energy has to come from somewhere.

But what if we ignore basic Newtonian physics. If someone is (using comic book powers here) picking up a car with their mind and they are not tapping into some external power source then they must somehow altering reality. They've found a loophole, a cheat code to physics. We can add a paragraph somewhere that says psionics breaks the laws of reality so that minimal energy (i.e. the power of the mind) is used for the effects, but that's just a fluff change. The end results always end up looking the same.

Psionics is an interesting concept, being able to break Newtonian physics is something that even spells as defined by D&D doesn't do, spells require tapping into the magic that suffuses the world in order to change things. But the question remains, how do you make it different from spellcasting? Because saying that you reject reality and substitute your own may work for an alien mindset, I just don't see how you differentiate it in practical terms.

 

[Aldarc]

TLDR: spells tap into magic that suffuses the world (e.g. the weave in FR), psionics does an end run around reality. So?

Depends on how you define the source. For example Paladins draw upon the power of their oath and conviction. They may be dedicated to a deity, they do not have to be. Let's take a look at the description of magic in the PHB spellcasting chapter: "In casting a spell, a character carefully plucks at the invisible strands of raw magic suffusing the world, pins them in place in a particular pattern, sets them vibrating in a specific way, and then releases them to unleash the desired effect — in most cases, all in the span of seconds."

So you say that psionics doesn't do that. Okay, cool. What power source do they draw on? Because "the mind" does not seem like enough. We don't have psionics in the real world (as far as we know) because of conservation of energy, you can't have events and state changes that spontaneously happen without some source of energy. That energy has to come from somewhere.

But what if we ignore basic Newtonian physics. If someone is (using comic book powers here) picking up a car with their mind and they are not tapping into some external power source then they must somehow altering reality. They've found a loophole, a cheat code to physics. We can add a paragraph somewhere that says psionics breaks the laws of reality so that minimal energy (i.e. the power of the mind) is used for the effects, but that's just a fluff change. The end results always end up looking the same.

Psionics is an interesting concept, being able to break Newtonian physics is something that even spells as defined by D&D doesn't do, spells require tapping into the magic that suffuses the world in order to change things. But the question remains, how do you make it different from spellcasting? Because saying that you reject reality and substitute your own may work for an alien mindset, I just don't see how you differentiate it in practical terms.

There are Divine spells, Arcane spells, and Primal spells. I would definitely be fine with Psionic spells. A big problem with a lot of WotC's attempts at designing psionics in 5e, IMHO, is that it suffers from over-engineering or over-design. It's honestly puzzling to me that WotC has not explored creating a standalone spellcaster (as per the 3e Psion). There are definitely ways that WotC could change how Psionic characters approach spell-casting (e.g., Concentration, not needing VSM spell components for spells on the psionic spell list, etc.).

 

[rgard]

I tried searching the thread and didn't find any reference to it, but for 3.5, Green Ronin published the "The Psychic's Handbook." (The Psychic's Handbook - Green Ronin Publishing | 3rd Era | DriveThruRPG.com). It's psionics based on feats and skills. It certainly has a different feel and mechanics than a spell point system.

 

[jgsugden]

... What power source do they draw on? Because "the mind" does not seem like enough. We don't have psionics in the real world (as far as we know) because of conservation of energy, you can't have events and state changes that spontaneously happen without some source of energy. That energy has to come from somewhere... Because saying that you reject reality and substitute your own may work for an alien mindset, I just don't see how you differentiate it in practical terms.

Reread parts of this thread. This concern ahas been addressed over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

When psionics has worked well in my games, it is evocative of comic book super heroes. That is extremely different than a wizard, sorcerer or bard.

Mechanically: Your PC has a limited set of powers, and they can decide on how powerfully they want those powers to operate. They can drop a lot into a big bang, or they can use a little power at a time. This gives them the ability to do the dramatic 'impossibly cool' thing by concetrating their remaining power into one big event. While some spellcasters have a limited set of powers, they can typically take very different powers - while the psionic character is tied to a thematic core. They have a narrower 'skill set'.

Lore wise: This is different between campaigns, but in mine there is a huge significance to psionics being "the" power source that does not originate from the spell weave. Arcane casters steal power from the weave. Divine casters are delivered magic through the weave. Nature casters pull magic through the weave from the positive and negative energy planes .... but psions train their souls to be power generators. They are their own power source, and thus their psionic abilities are not impacted by magics that deal with the weave such as dispel magic, detect magic and counterspell.

Further, psionics were unknown before the Far Realm collided with the Known Reality. When this collision took place, Devils were corrupted into Demons; and the Prime Reality shattered and broke off the Shadowfell, Feywild, and Ethereal Plane (three reflective planes that are half Prime Material Plane, half Negative Energy Plane/Positive Energy Plane/Far Realms). At this time, when Aberrations began to force their way into reality, the psionic powers of the Far Realm also began to appear and people began to learn to use them in ways that were previously unknown - from forming the first Monastic Orders to learning how to perform psionic miracles without magic.

If you try to implement that idea by just reskinning a wizard or sorcerer you lose a lot. I've tried it. Many times. It sucks. It feels contrived. It gives you that boring feel that so many people complain about in this thread. The difference between me and those people is that I know you can do more with psionics to make it feel distinct.

Will it have some common concepts with spellcasting? Of course. It will also have things in common with the Battlemaster Fighter like attack rolls and forcing opponents to make saving throws. However, if executed well, it will not feel like a fighter, wizard, sorcerer, bard or any other existing class - in my model, it will feel like a comic book super hero inserted into the game.