What a creature knows question

[Mirtek]

whenever you use a power on a creature, it knows everything that's being done to it.

Correct.

However, let's say you use a power that says something like, the next time this creature attacks you, it does half damage...or its ally takes half the damage it inflicts.

Now according to what I'm being told, the creature that has this effect on it knows it,

Correct, the creature knows this as soon as it's affected by the power.

and will NEVER attack you then. Knowing the effect, it will automatically turn and attack another creature, effectively making this particular power *useless*.

Not useless. A creature that actually wanted to attack you just did not attack you but someone else. The power did something,

The example mentioned by Infiniti2000 is why it's important to take a look at how your defender marks. A warden or fighter marks, period. A mark is all that has been done to the monster and the mark is all the monster knows. Their punishment mechanics are independent powers disconnected from the mark itself, thus a marked monster doesn't know about them.

If a swordmage or paladin marks a monster they do it with a power that contains both mark and punishment. Since this is a single power the marked monster knows not only about the mark but also about the details of the punishment.

 

[Mengu]

The example mentioned by Infiniti2000 is why it's important to take a look at how your defender marks. A warden or fighter marks, period. A mark is all that has been done to the monster and the mark is all the monster knows. Their punishment mechanics are independent powers disconnected from the mark itself, thus a marked monster doesn't know about them.

I've seen DM's say "this guy has fought fighters before, he knows how your mark works". And I've seen DM's not say that, but play as though monsters know. And I've seen DM's who struggle with pretending they don't know what they know.

I'm typically just transparent about it both ways. If a monster marks a PC, and has some retaliation mechanic, I tell them. Hey, if you ignore this behemoth's mark or try to shift, he might head bash you, or if you ignore this drider's mark, you might take some poison and necrotic damage. It just makes my life easier, particularly because PC's tend to remember when bad things might happen to them, better than me noticing the mark on them.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm having a bit of trouble resolving this in my mind. What I've been told is that whenever you use a power on a creature, it knows everything that's being done to it.

That would certainly make adjudicating this power confusing


Memory to Mist (Wizard Utility 2)
Daily * Arcane
Minor Action, Ranged 2
Target: One creature not involved in combat and that is lower level than you
Effect: The creature forgets everything that happened inthe past 10 minutes and for the next 1 minute.
Source: Dragon #381

However, let's say you use a power that says something like, the next time this creature attacks you, it does half damage...or its ally takes half the damage it inflicts.

Now according to what I'm being told, the creature that has this effect on it knows it, and will NEVER attack you then. Knowing the effect, it will automatically turn and attack another creature, effectively making this particular power *useless*.

Or its attack has a strong effect/control element independent of damage.
Or it is using area attacks against your entire party.
Or it has some handy dandy minions nearby that it doesn't mind sacrificing.

Personally I think situations like this are a great time to let monster intelligence/character and flavor take the wheel.

 

[RavenBlackthorne]

I don't really want to get into the rules bits here, but if I had a power that guaranteed I wouldn't be attacked for a turn, I would not at any point consider that power useless.

Correct.
Correct, the creature knows this as soon as it's affected by the power.
Not useless. A creature that actually wanted to attack you just did not attack you but someone else. The power did something,

This. Many times. 0 damage is better than half of anything (except 0, pedants) in my book. Not a waste of a power in that case. I know it doesn't seem like it but think of it phrased like this: "1d8 dmg and the creature cannot target you until the end of your next turn". That's pretty sweet. Then on the off chance it does, you're saved pain.

 

[The Monster]

I play monster the way I run my PCs: the rules say all the info is transparent, fine. On either side of the screen, I take the mark/threat/zone as a piece of information: If I have a good reason to challenge the mark or trigger the zone, I'll do it. Granted, I'm a little looser with my NPCs hit points than with my own, but the principle's the same. And in both cases, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. In the last session I ran, the fighter really proved his worth: on *two* occasions bad guys triggered his mark - trying to finish off a badly-bloodied avenger - and once he rolled a crit, the other he rolled max-normal damage, in both cases killing the critters before their potentially fatal blows landed (one of the attacks was going to be a crit if it hit, I'd already rolled the die). He went home practically glowing that night.
So, yeah: if there's a reason to risk the trigger, I'll take it. Different critters have different reasoning, though, depending on mentality and goals, as already discussed earlier. But while it isn't a wasted action, it often just feels better to at least sometimes get the free swing/extra damage/etc. As I see it, the game is not better if the mark is always honored, nor is it better if it never is; somewhere in between is the way to go.

 

[wlmartin]

I'm having a bit of trouble resolving this in my mind. What I've been told is that whenever you use a power on a creature, it knows everything that's being done to it. For example, the marked condition. It knows that if it attacks someone other than whoever marked it, it takes a -2 to the attack.

All well and good.

However, let's say you use a power that says something like, the next time this creature attacks you, it does half damage...or its ally takes half the damage it inflicts.

Now according to what I'm being told, the creature that has this effect on it knows it, and will NEVER attack you then. Knowing the effect, it will automatically turn and attack another creature, effectively making this particular power *useless*.

How does everyone deal with something like this? Just seems odd to me. It seems like creatures shouldn't be aware of somethings a power does until it happens. <shrugs>

Thanks.

I would usually allow any monster that is subject to a negative effect to know about it, even if it is conditional. Usually however the flavor of the text on the power will tell you (such as the creature feels bound by electricity).

Marking is something a lot of DMs get wrong.
Typically a creature should naturally attack someone it is marked by. Marking isnt really the right word to use and I dislike it, its more like Taunt. Imagine that the marked creature is being taunted by the PC who marked it... it is being called a silly sack of smelly hair and the PC is drawing all of the agro.

The only way I would have the creature ignore this is
a) The creature is under command from a different creature and is following orders
b) The creature has a very high intelligence and can understand when he is being tricked into fighting or not
c) The creature is unable to percieve the mark (PC is out of sight or cant be heard)

Otherwise the creature should ALWAYS follow the mark and attack it, to do something else defeats the purpose of the mark system.

Some people think the benefit of marking is that you encourage the creature to attack someone else and it takes a -2 on that attack, its not. The benefit is that the defender PC with oodles of HP and Armor distracts the bad guy from attacking the fleshy rogue adjacent to it and meanwhile the rogue gets into flanking position and backstabs.

Think about this. Any character that can mark (Fighter, Paladin etc) has this built into their balance, disregarding how mark works is essentially handicapping that character class and if you intend to do that, at least give them an extra At-Will or some other benefit.

 

[Ryujin]

Consider both the creature's motivation, and intelligence. An unintelligent creature might not care about a condition, as it has already decided what is going to be for dinner tonight. It might not want the ouchie.

An intelligent one will consider the options, then act accordingly. Frequently my intelligent creatures will just suck it up, because their ultimate goal otherwise suffers.

 

[Pentius]

Otherwise the creature should ALWAYS follow the mark and attack it, to do something else defeats the purpose of the mark system.

Some people think the benefit of marking is that you encourage the creature to attack someone else and it takes a -2 on that attack, its not. The benefit is that the defender PC with oodles of HP and Armor distracts the bad guy from attacking the fleshy rogue adjacent to it and meanwhile the rogue gets into flanking position and backstabs.

Think about this. Any character that can mark (Fighter, Paladin etc) has this built into their balance, disregarding how mark works is essentially handicapping that character class and if you intend to do that, at least give them an extra At-Will or some other benefit.

I disagree. If a defender gets his target marked, and is in a position to enforce it, I see that as a win/win for the defender, and a lose/lose for the target.

Picture a foe. Does he want to attack the Fighter? Probably not. That guy is the toughest, he'll go down hardest. Does he want to attack anyone else? And get a smack in the face with the Fighter's sword? No, not really. That's just two sucky choices.

Picture the Fighter. If the DM is gonna go around having enemies disregard his marks left and right, he could potentially be throwing out an OA every round. With his wisdom bonus as an added accuracy buffer. An extra attack per round, with an accuracy boost, yeah, I'll take that! But if the Fighter is getting the hits instead, well, the best-armored, highest HP, most tough guy tricks up his sleeve character(probably) is a lot more likely to be able to handle it.

So marking an opponent is never really a total loss, unless they have free action, at will mark shedding ability.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

The only way I would have the creature ignore this is
a) The creature is under command from a different creature and is following orders
b) The creature has a very high intelligence and can understand when he is being tricked into fighting or not
c) The creature is unable to percieve the mark (PC is out of sight or cant be heard)

Otherwise the creature should ALWAYS follow the mark and attack it, to do something else defeats the purpose of the mark system.

As an actual player of a Defender, I would say that you're half right. A DM should do a mix of respecting the mark, and disrespecting the mark, not one extreme or the other. If the DM always attacks the one who marked it, then the Defender's surges and hit points become the limiting factor in an adventuring day. Doesn't matter if everyone else has 8+ surges, the Defender is down to 2 now, we have to rest because he will go down in the next fight due to the DM never ignoring the mark.

Secondly, read the entries for Combat Challenge and Divine Challenge. If they were meant to compel attacks, then why all that stuff about all the things they can do when a marked creature attacks an ally? Simple, it was meant to be triggered. Not all the time, but some of the time. Otherwise, entire class features are going to waste. It would be like building an Orb Wizard and then finding out that there aren't any Save Ends effects available to Wizards. What would be the point of the feature if it never,or very rarely, gets used?

All of this talk is good and well, but it's mostly been about generalities. How about a specific example of a power that basically becomes useless when the monster knows what it does?

Defender's Gambit - Fighter Level 15 Daily
[sblock]
Inviting attack, you lure your enemy into letting its guard down for a counterattack.
Daily

Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: Until the end of your turn, you gain a power bonus to melee attack rolls and melee damage rolls against the target equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Effect: The target can make a basic attack against you as an immediate reaction, and then you make a secondary attack against it as a free action.
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 5[W] + Strength modifier.
Miss: Half damage.
[/sblock]

Now, in the case of the above power, the actual hit does no damage. It only grants a power bonus to melee attack and damage rolls until the end of your turn (not next turn, but current turn). The target can make a basic attack as an Immediate Reaction, and then you get to make a 5[W] attack against it as a free action, along with those bonuses.

What incentive is there for the monster to attack? This power is granting the choice to do an extra, special, attack as a immediate reaction. If the monster doesn't take it though, then the Fighter loses the 5[W] counter attack, as well as the bonuses to hit and damage. The monster loses nothing in that scenario though, because it was an immediate reaction basic anyway, not their normal atack. However, they pretty much completely invalidate the Fighter's whole Standard action here, unless he uses an Action Point.

Other than the occassional corner case of a really stupid monster that wants to kill the PC anyway, this power is damn near useless. A small child would see that it's a losing proposition, let alone any reasonably intelligent foe. Heck, I would even argue that most animals, if they knew the effect here, would not take this gambit. So who is ever going to take this power?

 

[Infiniti2000]

As a side note regarding Defender's Gambit, the major downside is that it costs the victim something. There are cases where a monster would choose not to lose his one immediate action to make a basic attack. If the monster has, say, an immediate action teleport power to get out of Dodge, then he won't react to this daily and that really sucks for the fighter. Instead of an immediate action, this should be a free action on the part of the victim.