D&D 5E What a DM has to do in 5E

[Mistwell]

Realistically if the party wasn't doing silence 10' radius in every room they engage in combat, its really likely that the rest of the dungeon is going to know they are there.

I disagree. In my own house, which is no mansion, I could scream at the top of my lungs and my wife can't hear me from the other side of the house.

And it's just a normal wood lath/plaster home.

If you're in the room next door, you'd hear. Otherwise, probably not. I do roll checks, but the odds of hearing are not favorable as you get further away behind more doors and walls.

So the logical thing for them to do would be to set up ambushes and try to come at the party in force.

When they are aware, this is exactly what they do. Indeed, many modules set this up just like that - and in the one I am reading right now, that's precisely how it works.

That's realistically what would happen. However that is not how most dungeons are set up. Most of them are set up with each room separate and the monsters unaware they are being invaded.

I don't know what "most" you're speaking for, but I disagree. Certainly TSR dungeons didn't usually operate that way, and this most recent 5e one doesn't operate that way, and I know some 3e ones didn't work that way.

Try it sometime. Set up a protocol and some perception (listen) checks for nearby rooms and then have them all gank the party when they engage in combat. See how fast that lasts before you have a few dead party members. It will likely turn into an epic battle where just as the party finishes off one group the next 2-3 groups have made it in to reinforce.

Not only do I do just that, but I even SAID I did just that, and it's one reason you and I are talking about this topic. You responded to me saying I did that, remember?

(The DC for a listen check in 4E is 0. You add 1 per square distant to the sound. So most checks in that dungeon were around 15-17 which monsters of the level made easily due to +1/2 level added to their ability mod.)

Not sure it matters what the DC was in 4e.

 

[Lokiare]

I disagree. In my own house, which is no mansion, I could scream at the top of my lungs and my wife can't hear me from the other side of the house.

And it's just a normal wood lath/plaster home.

Try banging some iron skillets together (to simulate sword play) and see if someone can hear you.

Also most dungeons are made of stone or brick which causes sound to travel much further.

If you're in the room next door, you'd hear. Otherwise, probably not. I do roll checks, but the odds of hearing are not favorable as you get further away behind more doors and walls.



When they are aware, this is exactly what they do. Indeed, many modules set this up just like that - and in the one I am reading right now, that's precisely how it works.

I've read quite a few modules and adventures in dungeon magazine since I started in early 2E. What I've found is that most adventures don't have any kind of checks to see if the inhabitants notice an invasion, and they don't have any kind of ambush/gank plans in them.

I don't know what "most" you're speaking for, but I disagree. Certainly TSR dungeons didn't usually operate that way, and this most recent 5e one doesn't operate that way, and I know some 3e ones didn't work that way.



Not only do I do just that, but I even SAID I did just that, and it's one reason you and I are talking about this topic. You responded to me saying I did that, remember?

No, you said that after they try to take an extended rest you would do that, not that all your dungeons do that already.

Not sure it matters what the DC was in 4e.

It was a demonstration of how likely it is for something like that to happen in 4E.

 

[DMZ2112]

Yes, so you agree the DM has to adjudicate it. Glad we are on the same page. Saying "Its the DMs job." doesn't negate the fact that the DM is going to have to do it. This thread is about what the DM has to do. That's one of those things. Unless the DM doesn't have to do it? I don't think that's the point you are making.

Well, if this thread is about the role of the dungeon master in any edition of the game, that's fine, but it is not the impression you gave.

Personally I think it's a bug, because in a system with asymmetric resources across PCs it overpowers those players whose PCs are able to nova.

I think we're kind of pussyfooting around the real issue here, with all our talk of player agency and potentially hostile dungeon envionrments, so let me cut straight to the chase:

IF YOU LET YOUR PCS NOVA EVERY ENCOUNTER YOU ARE A TERRIBLE DUNGEON MASTER.

Does that about cover it? The potential for this sort of behavior has existed in every version of D&D, and it has been particularly obvious in digital versions. It's how I played the old SSI gold box D&D video games. Fight, rest. Fight, rest. Fight, rest. Interrupted? Restore save game. But if there had been a dungeon master at the "table," so to speak, that would have/should have been /impossible/, because that is literally the very /definition/ of dungeon mastery. You have a dungeon. You are its master. Act like it.

I'm hear you saying that the mismanaged five-minute workday benefits casters in editions other than D&D4, and that is the reason why it is bad. I'm not sure if you're saying that it is therefore not bad in D&D4, or if you are saying that it is bad, only in a different way.

For my part, it is always bad, and favoring individual characters over others is in no way the biggest part of the problem. But the fact remains: the five-minute workday has always been a thing, it is why you have a dungeon master in the first place, and it doesn't need to be written out of the game, because in a properly managed campaign it is a total non-issue.

I once set up a dungeon like this where every time the party engaged in combat without trying to do it silently each adjacent room or encounter would roll to see if they hear, and if they did they would converge on the party, and they would send a scout out to warn everyone in the complex about what was going on. That's realistically what would happen. However that is not how most dungeons are set up. Most of them are set up with each room separate and the monsters unaware they are being invaded.

It's true that most published dungeons don't provide instructions on handling encounters spilling into one another, but in my experience that quickly becomes a rabbit hole -- when do you stop? The author of the dungeon can't see what's going on at the table, and can't adapt for conditions.

Again, I think adjudicating this sort of thing is a central part of the dungeon master's responsibility in any edition, and is in no way unique to D&D5.

Also, from the perspective of the devil's advocate, you are ignoring the fact that encounters in a good dungeon are mapped for a reason -- meaning that the monsters in a given room have a purpose in being there. The equation is not as simple as "hear swordplay, run to investigate" -- any soldier who has ever been on guard duty will tell you that's a really good way to win the battle and lose the fort.

Also most dungeons are made of stone or brick which causes sound to travel much further.

And have solid-core hardwood doors, which are essentially soundproof. I mean, as long as we're generalizing.

No, you said that after they try to take an extended rest you would do that, not that all your dungeons do that already.

It's /understood/, Lokiare. Again, dungeon mastery.

 

[Lokiare]

Well, if this thread is about the role of the dungeon master in any edition of the game, that's fine, but it is not the impression you gave.

Its about what a dungeon master of 5E has to do regardless of what dungeon masters of other editions have to do.

I think we're kind of pussyfooting around the real issue here, with all our talk of player agency and potentially hostile dungeon environments, so let me cut straight to the chase:

IF YOU LET YOUR PCS NOVA EVERY ENCOUNTER YOU ARE A TERRIBLE DUNGEON MASTER.

How are you going to stop them? "You begin to cast the spell, but then you have a random coughing fit. You think maybe you've caught the flu". No seriously, how do you stop this behavior? I can see deincentivisng it. I can see discouraging it. I cannot see 'stopping it' as that would take away a players ability to control their character. The only thing the DM can do is react to it.

Does that about cover it? The potential for this sort of behavior has existed in every version of D&D, and it has been particularly obvious in digital versions. It's how I played the old SSI gold box D&D video games. Fight, rest. Fight, rest. Fight, rest. Interrupted? Restore save game. But if there had been a dungeon master at the "table," so to speak, that would have/should have been /impossible/, because that is literally the very /definition/ of dungeon mastery. You have a dungeon. You are its master. Act like it.

So again, you agree that 5E DMs will have to deal with this in some form or another (regardless of whether DMs of other editions do or not). Good then we are on the same page.

I'm hear you saying that the mismanaged five-minute workday benefits casters in editions other than D&D4, and that is the reason why it is bad. I'm not sure if you're saying that it is therefore not bad in D&D4, or if you are saying that it is bad, only in a different way.

For my part, it is always bad, and favoring individual characters over others is in no way the biggest part of the problem. But the fact remains: the five-minute workday has always been a thing, it is why you have a dungeon master in the first place, and it doesn't need to be written out of the game, because in a properly managed campaign it is a total non-issue.

You must be looking for another thread, because no one in this thread is talking about mechanically removing the 5 minute work day. We are simply saying 5E DMs will have to deal with it.

It's true that most published dungeons don't provide instructions on handling encounters spilling into one another, but in my experience that quickly becomes a rabbit hole -- when do you stop? The author of the dungeon can't see what's going on at the table, and can't adapt for conditions.

Generally you stop when you realize after the third or fourth players' character's death that no one other than you is having any fun and then you stop worrying about being realistic, and move on.

Again, I think adjudicating this sort of thing is a central part of the dungeon master's responsibility in any edition, and is in no way unique to D&D5.

Again you are agreeing that the DM deals with these issues in 5E. Good, that's all we are talking about in this thread.

Also, from the perspective of the devil's advocate, you are ignoring the fact that encounters in a good dungeon are mapped for a reason -- meaning that the monsters in a given room have a purpose in being there. The equation is not as simple as "hear swordplay, run to investigate" -- any soldier who has ever been on guard duty will tell you that's a really good way to win the battle and lose the fort.

Which is why they send scouts and runners rather than all bunching up, but short of Hobgoblins, they probably don't have the intelligence or training to think like that anyway. Their behavior would be to see what the disturbance is and deal with it. They wouldn't tactically think 'it must be a diversion, I must stay at my post no matter what.'

And have solid-core hardwood doors, which are essentially soundproof. I mean, as long as we're generalizing.

Yep, and they are all perfectly fitted to their door frames and never warp break or have gaps.

You kind of miss the point of generalizing. its easy to have different materials for doors in dungeons, the inhabitants simply go get different materials and make doors. its kind of hard to have different materials for the dungeons themselves being generally underground and all. I mean you might occasionally get a wooden fort or something above ground, but for the most part that is going to be the exception to the rule.

It's /understood/, Lokiare. Again, dungeon mastery.

Yes, which is the point of this thread. People keep talking about how easy 5E is to dungeon master, but when you put in all the elements from previous editions like splat books, big adventures, lots of items, many many monsters, etc...etc... like you had in editions 1 through 3 then you end up with pretty much the same difficulty.

Remember 3.5E wasn't very hard to DM at first, but after a few supplements it became a nightmare.

 

[pemerton]

IF YOU LET YOUR PCS NOVA EVERY ENCOUNTER YOU ARE A TERRIBLE DUNGEON MASTER.

Why?

For instance, if I was GMing Tomb of Horrors I would absolutely expect the players to nova ever room. Why would they do it any other way? (Also, what are you suggesting that I should do to stop them?)

 

[DMZ2112]

Why?

For instance, if I was GMing Tomb of Horrors I would absolutely expect the players to nova ever room. Why would they do it any other way? (Also, what are you suggesting that I should do to stop them?)

If you can't infer my answers to these questions from my previous posts in this thread then I am failing on such a catastrophic level that there isn't much sense in continuing to attempt explanation.

I will say that I was perhaps unwise to select Tomb of Horrors as one of my examples, as it is somewhat unique among dungeons.

 

[The Human Target]

I've never understood why Novaing is a problem, outside of the concept if a 5 minute work day.

Sure, it doesn't replicate certain kinds of fiction.

But it does replicate reality, and plenty of other fiction.

Or why the players choosing to do so us somehow indicative of the DM failing at his job when its an issue with the system.

 

[pemerton]

If you can't infer my answers to these questions from my previous posts in this thread then I am failing on such a catastrophic level that there isn't much sense in continuing to attempt explanation.

You could just tell me.

I have never run ToH. I have run a somewhat comparable adventure of my own design, in which the PCs - under no particularly serious time pressure (they had weeks, at least) - were exploring an abandoned castle to learn secrets of an archlich who had once lived there. The castle was protected by extremely powerful magical wards, and contained dark secrets that the PCs were trying to recover.

The game was set in the World of Greyhawk: the PCs lived in the Imperial Palace in Rauxes (the Great Kingdom), and the castle was many hundreds of miles away in the Howling Hills (north of Iuz). So each day would begin with a teleportation by the PCs to get to the castle. Then they would have to break the wards so they could fly in over the walls. Then they would explore whatever bit of it they could until they were running low on spells. Then they would fly back outside and teleport home.

Each PC was a caster - either full magic-user or warrior/mage - and so this sort of nova-ing didn't create any particular intraparty imbalances. The actual exploration was sometimes interesting but often a bit tedious (much as I imagine ToH might be), and I probably wouldn't run a scenario like that again. But I don't understand why it was, per se, bad GMing.

 

[MasterTrancer]

R: What a DM has to do in 5E

Does anyone else think the "five-minute workday" is a feature, not a bug? I never once had a problem with the five-minute workday until D&D3 introduced the concept of the "four-encounter workday." And even after that misguided bit of design, I had far more trouble with players whining when I introduced a fifth encounter to a day of adventuring than I did with players trying to rest after each encounter. Particularly in D&D4 -- woe betide the dungeon master who "tricks" his party into using their precious dailies before the final battle of the day.

What utter [expletive redacted].

The fact is that PCs /should/ have the option of resting after every combat. It's the smart choice, and denying it for rules reasons is illogical. But there are real, logical consequences to taking that kind of risk in a hostile area, and considering those consequences and planning for them is part of play!

Does anyone really believe that the Tomb of Horrors, or the Temple of Elemental Evil, or the crash site in the Barrier Peaks were meant to be crawled through in four-encounter chunks, leaving the dungeon after each one? For that matter, does anyone believe that they were meant to be conquered entirely in a single day?

No! You fight until you are tired, and then you make a judgment. Can we risk another combat before turning back? Should we save what strength we have in case we encounter a patrol on the way back to the entrance? Can we risk leaving the dungeon at all? That door looks sturdy -- should we spike it and stand watches while we get a night's sleep here? This is the /game/, people -- it's not just a string of combats with the dungeon master reading text at you between them, no matter what the Living campaigns and D&D Encounters would have you believe.

The only thing that matters in encounter design is in-universe reason. When you design an encounter, that encounter should exist for a reason that is logical within the framework of your adventure and your fantasy setting. The party's level is irrelevant. The number of encounters they have already had that day is irrelevant. The party makeup is irrelevant.

If you /choose/ to consider these irrelevancies there is nothing specifically wrong with that -- it can make the game a lot more playable -- but adventures designed around them are sterile and always have been. D&D3 may have made the problem worse but it's not like the problem did not pre-exist the D20 SRD.

I'm almost standing up, applauding.

Can't agree more.

 

[Ichneumon]

Players got the five minute workday fever? Here's how to cure 'em. When the gaming session starts, break out a stopwatch. They now have five minutes to get everything done before they're required to rest. Done enough times, that'll make them heartily sick of the 5MWD, and probably of you as well, but such are life's drawbacks.

Alternatively, you could accept it as their preferred playstyle and just have the monsters and NPCs work around the party being asleep so much. This doesn't have to involve constantly trying to 'beat' them or giving them nicknames like Rip, Van and Winkle, but have the party's reputation follow them around ("Please rescue my daughter who got dragged into the snow cave labyrinth - this side of the summer solstice would be nice.") and ensure NPCs don't wait for them if it isn't required.

It's also important to ensure, as a DM, you're not forcing them into the habit. If your average encounter requires Patton-level strategy plus enough luck to drain a dozen leprechauns in order to avoid a TPK, most parties will balk at having to complete five or six of these before sundown.