Level Up (A5E) What am I missing?

[TheOneGargoyle]

Warning: long post is long.

Wow, yes it was long but also it was awesome !

Then I guess I don't understand what your question or complaint is here. Are you expecting the game to provide that stance, or examples of it?

Nah, I honestly didn't mean this turn into War & Peace. The crux of it was simply:
a) I thought giving more biological-based differences differentiated races more and I liked the diversity of that, and
b) I thought that subraces having biological basis rather than being purely cultural made more sense.
That's all.

Birds' wings are pretty different from the skin color of fictional humanoids. There's a reason why wings are shaped the way they are: albatross wings let it soar; falcon wings let it dive; owl wings let it fly silently. Likewise, there are evolutionary reasons why human skin colors wound up the way they are. But a fantasy humanoid, potentially created by gods or magic, only looks the way it does because some writer or artist decided it.

(I'd like to point out that orcs have gods of fertility and medicine, loyalty and strength, and strategy--yet for some reason, D&D decided those gods are evil; if they were elf gods, they'd be CG.)

Now, you could make a point that artists should learn something about wing anatomy before illustrating dragons.

OMG yes !!

A large number are, or are else designed to embody a particular negative cultural trait. Whether it was intended to be racist isn't the point, though; it's the result that count.

I'll give you this.

As another TV Tropes page is entitled "Most Writers Are Human."

I love xenofiction. Two of my favorite novels count as xenofiction (Watership Down and The Gods Themselves), and another novel I enjoy (Raptor Red) is not only xenofiction, but involves only animals with animal intelligence, not full sapience like in Watership Down. But here's the thing: it's difficult, maybe even impossible, for a human writer to (a) both write from a completely alien point of view, and (b) make it interesting and relatable to readers. Just like it would difficult or impossible for you to write a sunset described by a creature able to see four or five colors instead of just three. Heck, lots of seeing people find it hard to describe things properly to blind people, and we're the same species--and even some of one group's culture doesn't translate into another.

I agree it's hard. I don't think that means people shouldn't try.

Or to players. Anecodote time: ages ago, my BFF and I worked to create a setting--still incomplete, because we gave up after a while--that was designed to be as non-Tolkienesque as possible and still be fantasy. There were nine sentient races, all of which were PC-allowed, and only three sentient monster species, and only three of those intelligent beings were even mammals (humans, ogres, elves). The other PC races include three reptilian races (couch-sized dragons, naga, lizard-folk) and three insectoid races (one based on butterflies, one based on beetles, and one based on termites), and the monster species were based on birds. I wrote up all the racial and monster info and worked very hard to make everyone as alien as possible. I used a lot of actual biology in there, and stole lots of interesting tidbits from non-European cultures in what was certainly cringe-inducing cultural appropriation, but in my defense, this was at least 16 years ago. Even the humans were very nontraditional. Their society was more based on that of Plains Indians, people had mile-long names that grew with every accomplishment, were polyamorous, and they had three genders (each with their own pronouns) and very strict gender roles--but their genders were chosen at adolescence and had nothing to do with biological sex or sexuality.

So my BFF decided to run a one-shot at a convention, DragonCon I think. And it was a flop. Nobody wanted to play any of the races except for humans because they were simply too alien. If I had made the nonhuman races more like humans, instead of trying to draw heavily from natural biology, it might have worked better.

Hehe, good anecdote, and good point.

Sure, you can create a people who are all-good, but it's as illogical as creating one that's all-bad, and just as boring. As Asimov wrote about utopias and dystopias, "you can't build a symphony on just one note."

Well, I never said all-good, I said far more likely. And I think there are interesting stories to be told by individuals who are different to the "far more likely" majority.

There are a few aspects of the ancestry/culture divide I disagree with, and yes, a person changing size because they were raised by people who were a lot smaller or larger is a silly one, and hopefully one that didn't make the final cut. Especially since it would prevent fun like Carrot "Headbanger" Ironfoundersson.

Ha, yes indeed !

On the other hand... if the red halflings of the great Marching Jungle are red-skinned and poisonous to touch, why is that? Is it part of their innate biology? Or is it because, like hawkbill turtles and many other animals, they are capable of extracting the toxins from the food they eat and it permeates their flesh and, like flamingos, their coloration comes from the fact that many of their favorite foods contain high levels of beta carotene? Thus, it's possible that non-red halflings can also develop the ability to extract the toxins and turn bright red.

Ok, that is a really good counter-example, I think I'm starting to really like you !
Ok then, point taken, perhaps those things ARE sometimes possible from cultural elements

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

It was a good one with lots of things I agree with

It really was !

On a serious note though, the lifespan & power gap between the mortal "humanoid" races is so vast that they pretty much exist in some middle ground between starfish aliens, sufficiently advanced aliens, & good is not nice or similar. Much like when the shadows helped the centauri get exactly what the centauri wanted & when the vorlons were roped in to vorlons help... sheridan?(minbari?) with the shadows... They have their own things going on & cann trivially handle your problem... but.... you don't want that help.

Oooh, a fellow Bab5 fan ! Niiiiice !
Oh yes, a thousand times yes, I often point to the shadows as a contempory example for my players of what happens when you make deals with demons

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

So this is now that thread again, huh? Maybe I should just close it now in anticipation of the usual.

Oh ! Is it ?
I'm so sorry if that's what's happened here, that absolutely was not my intention.
If it's come across that way, go ahead and lock the thread.
Apologies again.

 

[tetrasodium]

It really was !

Oooh, a fellow Bab5 fan ! Niiiiice !
Oh yes, a thousand times yes, I often point to the shadows as a contempory example for my players of what happens when you make deals with demons

The vorlons were not much better than the shadows. Both were playing a different game the second races were barely qualified to beg the other first ones to convince them to leave the galaxy so the second races could finish developing.

 

[Faolyn]

I've never seen anything to suggest they have life spans like dragons or even* old school elves & such.

Back in 2e, their lifespans were: Storm: 600 years; Stone: 800 years; Frost: 250 years; Fire: 350 years; Hill: 200 years.

Among other giants: Desert: 400 years; Jungle: 200 years; Reef: 600 years. The others weren't listed.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

After all, there has to be something unusual about your PC to make them go adventuring.

Well, no, there doesn’t.

But also...all that stuff means, for I suspect a very large % of players, that none of those general statements are true of those folk, either.

Especially stuff like dwarves being resilient or minotaurs being incredibly strong. The least coach potato Minotaur should still be comparable to the average human in strength, at least, literally without any effort.

 

[Faolyn]

Well, no, there doesn’t.

But also...all that stuff means, for I suspect a very large % of players, that none of those general statements are true of those folk, either.

Well, that unusual thing could just be "hometown was destroyed by rampaging killer moths" or "willing to do anything to prove themselves to their true love." But it could also be "the strongest halfling in the tri-county area."

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well, that unusual thing could just be "hometown was destroyed by rampaging killer moths" or "willing to do anything to prove themselves to their true love." But it could also be "the strongest halfling in the tri-county area."

I mean, those may be common things, but why would being strong send you adventuring?

 

[Faolyn]

I mean, those may be common things, but why would being strong send you adventuring?

Too strong for your people: you pose a danger to them because you accidentally hurt some of them.

Too strong for your people: they kick you out because you break everything.

You get fed up with the weaklings in your village and decide to leave; after all, their idea of an exercise regimen is lifting a fork.

It turns out you're actually half-halfling, half something else; only your physical strength gives evidence to your other half, and you want to find out what that is.

You want to perfect your magical knowledge (being strong is just a secondary attribute).

You were recruited into the army because of your strength. After you were discharged, you couldn't go home again.

Lots of halflings go adventuring. Being strong gives you an edge.

Obligatory Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic Strip.

 

[dave2008]

Back in 2e, their lifespans were: Storm: 600 years; Stone: 800 years; Frost: 250 years; Fire: 350 years; Hill: 200 years.

Among other giants: Desert: 400 years; Jungle: 200 years; Reef: 600 years. The others weren't listed.

I guess cloud giants where just myths