What are all the differences between He-Man and Frodo?

[Villano]

He-Man is a child who becomes a man to go on adventures with a group of other men and a beauiful woman.

Frodo is a beautiful man-child who goes on adventures with sweaty men dressed in leather.

*cough*

As for He-Man, he would have charged Barad-Dur, Battlecat and all.
And Sauron would have remained up in Barad-Dur, regarding them, his Eye fixed upon them, and upon them he would have poured his hatred, his anger, his willingness to kill and destroy, in a focused beam of will.

Of course, if you go by the story of He-Man, he would have been unaffected. (chuckles)
Go by any other story, and that would have been the end. Even the distant sight of the projection of that will, shown only for a moment, and with it's power totally aimed elsewhere, stunned Sam and overwhelmed Frodo.

Which shows that the world of Comic Books and the world of fantasy might be farther apart than people think.

I really hope you were joking and not seiously trying to argue the validity of one form of fictious magic over another.

BTW, I prefer the magic of He-Man and Skeletor's energy blasts and 300 ft tall monsters made of bones to LotR and their Staffs Of Making Old Men Fall Down.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I question the validity of neither.

I would like to comment that they are aimed at different audiences.
However, this does not mean that the entirety of the audience of He-Man is children, or that the entirety of the audience of LOTR are adolescents and adults.
There are plenty of adults who watch He-Man, and plenty of children who read LOTR.

In a stronger case than the above, there are far more adults who watch Bugs Bunny than there are children, apparently.
An outdoor expo at Pine Knob brought over 10,000 people to watch a large, outdoor screening of Bugs Bunny, and the majority of those attending were adults.

I think the primary difference between the two mediums is the threshhold of disbelief.
Consider the Oz Books, which are considered children's classics.
They push the threshhold of believability very greatly.

Or perhaps, they simply push it more bluntly, and use less subtlety.

For example, Oz is ruled by a 13 year old girl.
She is very intelligence, very wise, and very powerful.
More to the point, she is beloved by her people as no politician ever is.
She is so popular that crime is unknown in the Emerald City, or in the lands immediately around it.
The people of the Land of Oz do not age. Adults remain adults, children remain children, and babies remain babies, and everyone is happy with this arrangement.
The Emerald City itself is one of the single most incredible bastions of wealth in existence, rivalling the treasure hoard of Smaug the Dragon, yet it's people take this for granted, and nobody in civilized Oz dreams of stealing from there.

Of course, it gets better (smiles warmly.)
Queen Anne of Oogaboo leads an Army of 4 Generals, 4 Colonels, 4 Majors, 4 Captains, and 1 Private (she hated that, having to have a private in her army) out to conquer the Land of Oz.
When that didn't work, she decided to conquer the Gnome King, nevermind his army of 50,000 trained warriors.
And if you think Queen Anne is out of it, remember that Ozma herself brought a similar army to Ev, to rescue the Royal Family of Ev from the Gnome King, and SHE invaded his Realm as well.

Now, I do not know if any Player Character in Dungeons and Dragons has assembled an Army of 4 generals, 4 colonels, 4 majors, 4 captains, and 1 private, in order to go off and conquer, say, Waterdeep, or Larloch's Lair, or Mordenkainen's Citadel of Steel, or perhaps the Empire of Iuz, but maybe someone did.
However, I doubt it. (If someone actually DID try this, please feel free to post the fact!)

People simply do not have their characters form armies of 4 generals, 4 colonels, 4 majors, 4 captains, and 1 private, to go take out the Zhentarim, Thay, the Empire of Iuz, or the Scarlet Brotherhood?

Why?

The answer, is obvious.
Believability. It is not believable. It goes too far past the suspension of disbelief, to be enjoyable for those playing the game.

Now, if the character gathers a great host of 100,000 armored warriors and mages, to go take on the Empire of Iuz, rather than 4 generals, 4 majors, 4 colonels, and 4 captains, then it could be said that the Suspension of Disbelief is made more possible, as belief is not stretched so far.
And yet, I could see children taking that army of officers and one private, right into Iuz's domain, and having a delightful time as they leveled Dorakaa to the ground with the invincible might of (cough) officers who have heart trouble, and thus might have heart attacks if they underwent any stress (as they actually told Ozma, to her face.)

That's the difference between He-Man and LOTR.
The Suspension of Belief.
And it seems to me that, the older one gets - at heart, the less one can suspend disbelief, until finally one can no longer do it at all.

This does not make either kind of story inferior to the other (although I do NOT rate He-Man as being as good as the Oz books, thank you very much.)

When I asked what differences you saw between the two, this was what I was asking for.
For I am curious as to your take on the subject.
This is a matter very relevant to the Hobby, to Dungeons and Dragons, and to every game played.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Yes, there is a world of difference between the two characters.

They both receive items of great power, possibly more power than any one mortal should possess. They both ultimately prove themselves heroic characters. They both, to a certain degree, represent "everyman" characters.

The difference is that Prince Adam is not the real hero, He-Man is. They're two sides of the same coin, but He-Man is more about the ideal selves that we can potentially become someday. With the help of a magic sword, Adam can unlock that potential and use it to overcome the forces of evil.

Frodo has to do it the hard way. Frodo's only hope it to draw upon every scrap of courage that he can find within. Frodo must represents the part of us that is scared, insecure, and feels oh so small, but that braves the trial by fire anyway.

 

[Piratecat]

Frodo would be cooler if he had a battlecat.

 

[Tonguez]

Consider the Oz Books, which are considered children's classics.
They push the threshhold of believability very greatly.

Or perhaps, they simply push it more bluntly, and use less subtlety.

For example, Oz is ruled by a 13 year old girl.
She is very intelligence, very wise, and very powerful.

Your point being? There have been a number of CHild-Monarchs in Earths history who were effective rulers (or grew up to be such) Alexander the Great was 15, Elizabeth 1 was a young Queen and Tutankhamun was I beleive 13.

More to the point, she is beloved by her people as no politician ever is.
She is so popular that crime is unknown in the Emerald City, or in the lands immediately around it.

The Emerald City itself is one of the single most incredible bastions of wealth in existence, rivalling the treasure hoard of Smaug the Dragon, yet it's people take this for granted, and nobody in civilized Oz dreams of stealing from there.

During the reign of Ghengis Khan (who despite being feared by Millions was loved by his own Mongol clansmen) it was said that a single unarmed girl could carry a bag of gold along the Khans Road without fear. According to marco Polo crimne was unknown in the MongolEmpire during the Great Khans rule

The people of the Land of Oz do not age. Adults remain adults, children remain children, and babies remain babies, and everyone is happy with this arrangement.

In DnD Elves stay children for 101 years, they do not sleep and are pratically immortal. SO your point is?

Of course, it gets better (smiles warmly.)
Queen Anne of Oogaboo leads an Army of 4 Generals, 4 Colonels, 4 Majors, 4 Captains, and 1 Private (she hated that, having to have a private in her army) out to conquer the Land of Oz.
When that didn't work, she decided to conquer the Gnome King, nevermind his army of 50,000 trained warriors.
And if you think Queen Anne is out of it, remember that Ozma herself brought a similar army to Ev, to rescue the Royal Family of Ev from the Gnome King, and SHE invaded his Realm as well.

Now, I do not know if any Player Character in Dungeons and Dragons has assembled an Army of 4 generals, 4 colonels, 4 majors, 4 captains, and 1 private, in order to go off and conquer, say, Waterdeep, or Larloch's Lair, or Mordenkainen's Citadel of Steel, or perhaps the Empire of Iuz, but maybe someone did.
However, I doubt it. (If someone actually DID try this, please feel free to post the fact!)

By my count thats 17 characters forming her elite army if we say cast them as say Level 20 PCs 4 Fighters, 4 Wizards, 4 Clerics, 4 Rogues and 1 Bard.

Now Queen Anne failed her her attempt on Oz and so turned on the Gnome king and his 50,000 warriors (say level 1 - 7 warriors, with the King being Level 15)

The PCs make mince meat of the gnomes!

People simply do not have their characters form armies of 4 generals, 4 colonels, 4 majors, 4 captains, and 1 private, to go take out the Zhentarim, Thay, the Empire of Iuz, or the Scarlet Brotherhood?

Why?

The answer, is obvious.
Believability. It is not believable. It goes too far past the suspension of disbelief, to be enjoyable for those playing the game.

I'm afraid that once DnD goes highlevel and Epic level even then it too fails the test of believability and you just have to accept that its all make believe.

That's the difference between He-Man and LOTR.
The Suspension of Belief.
And it seems to me that, the older one gets - at heart, the less one can suspend disbelief, until finally one can no longer do it at all.

The older one gets they more they need to beleive in order to remain sane - we have to believe the sun will rise, that we are safe in our homes and that we will make it through another day, the difference is that children have a much easier time staying sane

Of course by the time one can no longer do it at all then generally Alzhiemers has set in and sanity is no longer an issue...

This does not make either kind of story inferior to the other (although I do NOT rate He-Man as being as good as the Oz books, thank you very much.)

When I asked what differences you saw between the two, this was what I was asking for.
For I am curious as to your take on the subject.
This is a matter very relevant to the Hobby, to Dungeons and Dragons, and to every game played.

I don't think the suspension of disbelief is different in either case, only the amount of candyfloss and intellectual effort required to rationalise them

 

[Villano]

I question the validity of neither.

I would like to comment that they are aimed at different audiences.

However, this does not mean that the entirety of the audience of He-Man is children, or that the entirety of the audience of LOTR are adolescents and adults.

There are plenty of adults who watch He-Man, and plenty of children who read LOTR.

Regardless of the make-up of the audience, the audience that the writers are aiming at is really what's important since that is what determines the level of complexity of the stories.

If your target audience is pre-teen/early teen (your merchandising core), you aren't going to include too much subtext in your writing.

This isn't to say that it can't be done, of course. You can do a kids' based show which is intelligent and adults can enjoy (compare Seasame Street to, say, Barney).

However, that doesn't excuse lapses in logic. I can understand and accept the monsters and magic of He-Man, but they've never given a good explanation as to why he has to keep his identity a secret.

He's already a prince and son of the man who disfigured Skeletor, who looks to be one of the most powerful magic-users on the planet. All this makes him a pretty big target.

And why doesn't he stay He-Man all the time? If you could magically transform into someone who looked like that, wouldn't you stay that way all the time (especially if you were a kid)?

Both of these problems could be fixed by saying that he can only stay transformed for a certain period of time (even if that period lasts several days or weeks). If he makes his identity known, his enemies will target him during the times he is human.

It's a small problem which bugs me because it can be so easily fixed.

Of course, it gets better (smiles warmly.)
Queen Anne of Oogaboo leads an Army of 4 Generals, 4 Colonels, 4 Majors, 4 Captains, and 1 Private (she hated that, having to have a private in her army) out to conquer the Land of Oz.

Sorry for chopping up your post, but I wanted to touch on this separately.

This story of the army reminds me of an episode of Buck Rodgers (during the years where the series was set aboard that spaceship. I never really cared for that time period, myself).

Anyway, the crew happens upon a ship which i manned by a group of midgets. These midgets are aliens with telekinetic powers.

The episode was mostly comedy with the aliens all being generals except for one, sole private (who also happened to be the only black midget).

He's the one who has to do all the diry work because, after all, you can't expect a general to do that.

Plus, no decisions can ever be made because none of the generals ever agree with the others.

We also learn that they only have one female in their entire species, a queen (I think she lays eggs). This causes the aliens to be especially curious of Wilma Dering (and her mysterious "bumps" which their queen doesn't have).

They eventually try to strip her with their powers to get a better look at her. However, Buck walks in and they stop.

Needless to say, I was very disappointed by this as a kid.

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers read that Oz book. Or, maybe, they just watched a couple episodes of Monty Python.

I think the primary difference between the two mediums is the threshhold of disbelief.
Consider the Oz Books, which are considered children's classics.
They push the threshhold of believability very greatly.

Or perhaps, they simply push it more bluntly, and use less subtlety.

For example, Oz is ruled by a 13 year old girl.
She is very intelligence, very wise, and very powerful.
More to the point, she is beloved by her people as no politician ever is.

She is so popular that crime is unknown in the Emerald City, or in the lands immediately around it.

The people of the Land of Oz do not age. Adults remain adults, children remain children, and babies remain babies, and everyone is happy with this arrangement.

The Emerald City itself is one of the single most incredible bastions of wealth in existence, rivalling the treasure hoard of Smaug the Dragon, yet it's people take this for granted, and nobody in civilized Oz dreams of stealing from there.

The answer, is obvious.

Believability. It is not believable. It goes too far past the suspension of disbelief, to be enjoyable for those playing the game.

Well, now you are dealing with fairy tale logic, which, in the best cases, can also work as satire.

I've never read any of the Oz books, but they seem to really work within this framework: modern fairy tales.

Fairy tales function in the theatre of the absurd. Look at Alice in Wonderland with its "unbirthdays" and croquet matches with like animals as the equipment.

The nature of the fairy tale is to rebel against logic (possibly using their new world as a vehicle of a morality tale).

That's the difference between He-Man and LOTR.
The Suspension of Belief.
And it seems to me that, the older one gets - at heart, the less one can suspend disbelief, until finally one can no longer do it at all.

This does not make either kind of story inferior to the other (although I do NOT rate He-Man as being as good as the Oz books, thank you very much.)

When I asked what differences you saw between the two, this was what I was asking for.
For I am curious as to your take on the subject.
This is a matter very relevant to the Hobby, to Dungeons and Dragons, and to every game played.

Well, the main difference is that they are, well, differnt.

It's kind of like comparing a Bond film to a realistic spy drama.

Both can be good movies, but the realistic film will use the confines of the real world to build their story upon, whereas Bond has its own world and rules.

Granted, there is no "real" world of fantasy, but He-Man's world is a place of simple morality. Adventure is the key. It is the Bond of fantasy.

LotR, on the other hand, would be like The Ipcress File. A place where the spies all look like accountants and spend most of their time filing reports or locked in musty attics watching the house accross the street and recording who comes and goes and when.

LotR tries to build a world with a clearly defined sense of logic. A place where A leads to B leads to C.

Another big difference is that LotR has a beginning, middle, and end, while He-Man is an open ended serial. This means that LotR can develop its characters with a definite outcome in mind, while He-Man characters must remain static (iconic, if you will).

If you want to talk about the differences in their personalities and heroics, He-Man is a child trying to prove his worth.

He tackles things head-on because that is what a child would do. You can fix a problem by smashing it (which is why Man-At-Arms is so necessary to both him and the stories; to tell him and the audience that you also have to think your way through things).

However, He-Man and his sword are imbued with what appears to be all the "lost" magic of the elders, so he has the power to survive head on encounters (which only reinforces his recklessness).

Frodo, on the other hand, doesn't want to be a hero. Sure, he wants to see the world, but he won't leap into a fight (as you can see in the cartoon, Adam is expected to be a fighter as well as a leader).

Frodo would pass the ring off to someone else if he knew they could get the job done. Adam wants to be a hero (although he'd rather be "Adam the hero" as opposed to having He-Man get the credit).

At its core, it's sort of like the difference between high-fantasy and low-fantasy, except, in this case, its high-fantasy (LotR) and epic-level, super-high-fantasy (He-Man).

You can be reckless when you have the power to topple a mountain and survive having one dropped on you.

Personally, I prefer low-fantasy to high in both movies and gaming. I like playing in a world where you can't grow or shrink by drinking a handy potion or come back from the dead (although I am looking forward to an upcoming high level, high-fantasy, evil, monster game we will be playing).

With cartoons, however, I like the super-high-fantasy. If you are going to go with a cartoon, you may as well take advantage of the medium.

And I don't really think that suspension of disbelief really is a matter of age as it is personal taste. Sometimes your tastes change as you grow older.

There are some cartoons and movies that I used to watch as a child that I don't like now, while there are others I enjoy now most likely because I liked them as a kid (I want a dvd of that cheesy Hercules movie that Lou Ferigno did. You know, the one where he and the villain turn into neon, cartoon outlines and recreate the dinosaur/gorilla fight from King Kong).

It's a bad, bad movie, but I smile every time I see it.

 

[The Forsaken One]

He-Man would charge Cirith Ungol, make Shelob his steed, trash the tower.
Then he would plainly (and very loudly) trash Barad-Dhur its gates.
Then he would grab Sauron by his incorporal bollox and throw him bouncing of his 15mil. stairs in his tower.
After that he would just build some more stairs just for the heck of it!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The Onslaught of Oogaboo

((Humorous post. Hope you have read some of the Oz books ...))

Queen Anne of Oogaboo, Oz (10th level Commoner)
Her 4 Generals (1st through 5th level Commoners)
Her 4 Majors (1st through 5th level Commoners)
Her 4 Colonels (1st through 5th level Commoners)
Her 4 Captains (1st through 5th level Commoners)
Her sole Private (1st level Noble)

Upon seeing the Army of Oogaboo approaching the civilized parts of the Land of Oz, Glinda was greatly sorrowed, for although Ozma could easily defeat these invaders, it would cause much grief and disruption for all involved.
She did not want the peace and plesantry of Oz disrupted, so she decided to act against these people from Oogaboo.
So, she caused the passage from Oogaboo to make several twists and turns, so that when Queen Anne and her army emerged, they were not in Oz any longer at all, but in a strange, faraway country.

They were in Furyondy, and the Greyhawk Wars were raging.
Even as the Army of Oogaboo watched, five thousand humanoids forded the Veng River and assailed the defensive fortresses protecting Grabford.
Her officers were scared to death by the frightful sight, but Queen Anne was fearless, and determined she would conquer this new country.
She planted the Royal Banner of Oogaboo in the soil, declared all the land hers, and gave a great shout.

Several hundred of the orcs and other humanoids turned, and saw the gaily colored uniforms of the people of Oz, and the grand banner of Oogaboo.
These orcs broke off the assault on the walls of the fortress, and charged the men of Oogaboo.
The Army of Oogaboo stood it's ground, for the very good reason that they were too scared to move, and they could not have outrun the orcs anyhow.
Queen Anne was not so cowed, however, and she ordered the charge. The sole private, being of higher stature than the officers, complied, and raising his ornate firearm he opened up on the orcs.

One orc went down, but the orcs knew of Furyondian arquebuses, and were not impressed.
Besides, they and their allies were making enough sound the boom of the gun was barely heard over their screams.
They released a hail of missiles, hundreds of war arrows, at the Army of Oogaboo. Because that Army was stationary and not wearing any sort of protection, most of these arrows found their mark.

Nothing happened.
Queen Anne and her officers, and the brave private, had never seen arrows before, and in any case the arrows did not hurt them.
The officers tried to faint when they saw blood coming from the arrow wounds, but Queen Anne scolded them like a mother, and they picked up their courage and plucked all the arrows out.
They looked at the strange weapons with wonder, for nobody in Oogaboo had ever seen an arrow. No weapons existed in Oogaboo. The small land, in it's isolated corner of Oz, protected by the Good Witch of the North, had never known any conflict in it's history.

The orcs, however, did a double-take, and their charge halted very abruptly.
They saw these seventeen men and one woman (who was furious at the stains to her royal clothing) survive an assault in a way only the most powerful mages could have survived.
They were not in pain. They were not falling. They didn't even seem to be greatly concerned about the affair.

Queen Anne grabbed her banner, held it high, and ordered the charge.
The officers would have refused, but Queen Anne whacked them with the banner in the backside, so off they went.
In front of them all went the Private, shooting all the way, downing orc after orc.

The orcs responded with a second wave of arrows, and a wave of spells.
Magic Missiles, Lightning Bolts, and Fireballs crashed into the Army of Oogaboo.
To little effect, except that Queen Anne became all the more infuriated as her royal clothing was ruined beyond repair, and - most offensive of all - her hair was throughly singed.

The orcs gave back.
This was not a fight they wanted, and it was charging right at them.
The enemy was immune to arrows, and fireballs only made them mad, and the other spells seemed to have no effect at all.
They gave back.
Then they turned and ran.

The main orc host, assailing the walls of the fortress, saw their own retreating, and looked in vain for the counterassault.
They could not find it, except for a small group of singed humans who could not possibly be the problem.
When the retreating orcs crashed into their own side, pandemonium ensued, and the High Commander of the attack was handed the news that an army of archmages, led by an archmagistress with the might of Mordenkainen himself, was counterattacking.

The High Commander sent his orc mages out to ascertain where the counterattack was coming from.
All their efforts were for naught; whatever it was, it was hiding from their scrying efforts.
The High Commander ordered his orcs to destroy the ragtag humans. They refused.
The High Commander repeated his order, killing a few orcs to underscore his command.

A thousand orcs charged the Army of Oogaboo from all directions, closing in for hand to hand combat.
It was all in vain.
Orc weapons, magical swords and maces, hit to no effect against the people of Oz.
The officers and Queen Anne, frantic and unable to do anything else, struck back.
They drew their weapons and fought, blanching at the blood and stink, the thunder and roar of combat, fighting as ordinary people do when cornered, desperate, and frightened out of their wits.
Queen Anne whacked orc after orc over the head with the Banner, while the private employed his gun as a club, and all the people of Oz kicked and struck at the enemy, trying to drive these horrid and repulsive creatures away.

Thus, over a hundred orcs went down, clubbed, kicked, and a few actually wounded from weapons.
The rest, seeing the enemy hacked, burned, shot, stabbed, and mutilated, without effect, gave back.
Kobold mages opened up with powerful Dispel Magics, and the Kobold High Sorcerer launched his Mordenkainen's Disjunction at the Army of Oogaboo.
This, the Army of Iuz hoped, would end the powerful magical defense of these wizards.
It was not to be. The second charge brought the same results, and orc after orc went down, kicked and punched by desperate officers, whacked over the head by Queen Anne, or run through by the able private.

The defenders of Grabford saw their opportunity, and counterattacked.
The Army of Iuz, it's attention diverted by the Army of Oogaboo, was unable to stop the sally, and they were driven back from the walls, hundreds killed, hundreds wounded.
The High Commander decided to sound the retreat, and he raised his great horn to do so.
However, Queen Anne had spotted him, and realized he was the one who had ordered the attack on her.
Infuriated, she charged, and the High Commander's orcs leap out of the way of this fierce, indomitable archmagistress, and Queen Anne whacked the High Commander as hard as she could on the face.

That settled it. The High Commander drew his sword and dueled with the Queen.
His swings cut apart her banner, but that only increased her fury.
His swings cut her beautiful clothing apart, and that only increased her fury.
His swings cut deeply into her, and THAT only increased her fury.
Before the High Commander knew what was happening, he had been kicked in the groin a dozen times, whacked over the head twice that many times, and the woman had bourne him to the ground, and was pummeling him in the face.
The High Commander was a veteran of many wars, high in the service of Iuz, but he was no match for a woman infuriated at the destruction of her wardrobe, which she had spent countless years cobbling together.
The High Commander, lost the battle as Queen Anne of Oogaboo knocked him silly, and then with a good right punch laid him out cold.

Seeing this, the entire Army of Iuz panicked.
The whole hoard turned and ran for the river.
Close on their heels came the forces of Furyondy, but none were closer than the officers of Oogaboo, who went because their Queen ordered it and she was not in any mood to be contradicted.
The fearless private also gave chase, firing his gun again and again, while the orcs screamed in fear and bedlam spread through their ranks.

There will always be some speculation as to why the Army of Iuz could not get back across the river.
Maybe it was because of the tremendous volleys of arrows sent against their boats by the Furyonders.
Maybe it was the fact the officers of Oogaboo sunk half the boats before they could cross.
Maybe it was the swiftness of the river.

What is known is that, when they fell into the river, the officers all went berserk.
Acting like drowning men, they grabbed for everyone and anything that floated, pulling hundreds of orcs into the water, upending boats, spilling supplies and vast hoards of food and weapons into the river.
And the officers did not stop, but actually attacked the boats (at least, according to eyewitnesses they did), climbing aboard and throwing the orcs overboard, smashing holes in the boats, sinking them, then repeating the process.
The fact that nobody in Oogaboo could swim, or that adrenal strength was in play here, might have made the difference, and certainly the orcs panicked as these invincible mages came climbing aboard their means of escape, throwing themselves into the river, only to drown themselves as their armor pulled them down.

The Furyonders never saw the Army of Oogaboo again.
Their Queen, the officers, and the private stormed after the remnant of the Army of Iuz as it retreated into the Horned Lands, declaring all that realm to be theirs.

However, they were eternally grateful.
Thus the city of Grabford and the northeastern frontier of Furyondy were saved from the Hoards of Iuz.
They were saved by the seventeen men and one woman from the fabled Land of Oz.

 

[A2Z]

Frodo would be cooler if he had a battlecat.

Battlecats make everything cooler!