what are the ramifications of points-of-light?

[Rechan]

One reason why I think Europe is perhaps a bad inspiration for PoL is because Europe is so freaking small. Let's look elsewhere for inspiration: the Americas.

Now, I don't know at what point in Coloniel America you reached "City" size. But much of North America was a pretty damn big ? across the map (from the perspective of the Europeans, at least). The North American continent is huge; even if you plopped a few cities down, travel between them would be so long (and in some cases treacherous) that it would definitely stifle trade, communication and protection. If you had a city in central Canada, one in the Southwestern United States, and one on the Eastern Sea Board (all established by settlers or a united native population), you'd have a big fat PoL between them.

Another source of inspiration is, again, the Americas but in this case South America. You had fairly big civilizations in Latin America - the Mayans, the Aztecs, etc. Then came Cortez, who smashed that to pieces. Now, imagine the post-Cortez Latin America, where the people are trying to put themselves back together. Lower population, emptier cities, long swaths of land unprotected.

One potential Cause of the PoL would be decaying of communication/travel. If there were a few established Roads, even groups who defended those Roads, or means of quicker travel - and society at large built up and up while taking advantage of this - then if it Went Away... You'd have a larger population, struggling, and suddenly In the Dark about news. Trade is cut off, and so on.

A non-PoL setting going suddenly to PoL is rife with hooks. Particularly if the transition was fairly recent. As suggested above, you could have a city that just got cut off from its ways of sustaining itself (trade, food, etc). So the city now too big for its britches is an interesting setting for an adventure!

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

One of the concepts of Points of Light that I think is important is that travel between settlements, as a whole is relatively dangerous and avoided if at all possible.

So you can have small thorps, thriving villages, functional towns, and magnificent cities, but huge movements of goods and people are unusual. Local movement is fairly safe, although an occasional dire wolf will eat a lonely traveller even in towns and every so often a pack of displacer beasts will sneak in and ravage the areas near a city wall.

Enough manages to get through to keep society functioning and the people from starving (mostly), but of those four caravans that set out from the village: one arrived safely at its destination after fighting off a band of goblins, one had half its members carried off by cultists and barely made it, the third faced a magical thunderstorm on route and had to hole up after losing several people, and no one has heard from the fourth.

So trade and caravans get through because they have to get through, but not easily and not without loss. The guild leaders and nobles want safe roads and such, but lack gold, resources, unity, and vision to bring about safe travel.

So the points of light might be strong, but the network that connects one to another is flimsy and fragile. It wouldn't take much to isolate a Point and have it fall without anyone really knowing what happened.

 

[Rechan]

Snip

Right on man. What I was driving at, but didn't enunciate well.

It wouldn't take much to isolate a Point and have it fall without anyone really knowing what happened.

And even if folks from neighboring Points know what's going on, they might not be able to help at all, because of travel. Your neighboring kingdoms may not have the manpower, or may feel that if they devote manpower to their neighbor, they will then be vulnerable.

Another point of reference (although it's hardly PoL) in that respect is Medieval Spain. I Believe, when Spain was taken by the Moores (Not the Moops), Spain was a ton of little fiefdoms. Well, one kingdom in Spain would fall, and none of its neighbors would do anything because they were selfish and, hey, why help my neighbor, they're not me, and they screwed me over a decade ago. So the whole place fell because they were not united.

 

[Desdichado]

Most of the Middle Ages in Europe effectively was a points of light setting.

Even as late as the 18th and very early 19th centuries, highwaymen were a major plague on folks trying to travel within England, for example. I mean, sure, they weren't monsters but the effect is pretty much the same.

Rather than pushing for urbanization, I think the POL paradigm isolates rural communities from each other more sharply.

 

[haakon1]

Except we've seen cities in the published setting, which is PoL.

I didn't realize they HAD published a setting. I haven't been paying much/any attention to WOTC products the last few years.

I mean, we don't need to be hypervigilant. It's just an idea to hang your hat on, not rigidity.

Cities are, simply put, fun. They supply certain niches and tropes. It's also hard to rationalize how you'd have a matical item shop in a town.

Which is why the idea of a true points of light/post-apocalyptic setting might be fun, for a while -- it definitely wouldn't be the standard game, but more "edgy", which is I thought what WOTC was going for. Oh well, it is whatever they say it is, since it's their setting.

 

[haakon1]

One interesting thing here is that Londonium/London revived in the same spot.

Apparently it moved downstream a few hundred yards, but part of the Roman city wall survived -- still survives, inside the Museum of the City of London -- and I believe was still used defensively in the Middle Ages.

Another angle that is present in history (but presumably not in fantasy) is the assimilation/culturalization of the invaders. When Saxons and Vikings/Normans invaded England, after a few generations, they became Christians and built a "newly stable monarchy that united England". Presumably this would not happen with Orc invaders in a fantasy world?

That might be an interesting premise. As I understand it, the current genetics-based assumptions are that the various invasions of England were relatively small and didn't make a large change in the underlying population, just in who was in charge (and even there, the old and new nobles intermarried to some extent). A human kingdom with a half-orc or hobgoblin invasive aristocracy might be interesting. Orcish as the language of court, Gruumsh as the state religion, etc.

 

[haakon1]

I agree. Europe in the period 500 to 1000 AD could perhaps be described as Points of Light.

I certainly think so -- that's what I thought they meant.

In any case, I agree with all your points.

 

[Desdichado]

Another angle that is present in history (but presumably not in fantasy) is the assimilation/culturalization of the invaders. When Saxons and Vikings/Normans invaded England, after a few generations, they became Christians and built a "newly stable monarchy that united England". Presumably this would not happen with Orc invaders in a fantasy world?

Well... yes and no. I mean, the Vikings that didn't come to England became Christian not long after, so I'd be leery of attributing the invasion as the catalyst for that change. The Saxons (and Angles, and whomever else was part of that particular migration) assimilated susprisingly little of the Romano-British civilization that it replaced, and the Vikings of Danelaw and whatnot gave as good as they took; while they eventually became fairly "Saxonized" it's fair to say that Saxon culture became pretty heavily "Vikingized" in return.

Of course, it is also the milieu of romance, where history almost collapses, leaving room for fantasy. Most of what is told about this era is almost certainly not true. Fantasy grew out of these legends, and we can mine the period for our settings, as long as we realize it is mostly fiction.

I don't know what you mean by "what is told." If you're trying to claim that all of post-Roman history until the Renaissance is "almost certainly not true" then I think you're way off base. If you mean something else by that, I'm not sure what it is.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Here's a thought: true PoL fits poorly with the baseline adventurer assumption within D&D.

As locals become forced to focus inward on their village, and it isn't safe to travel to interact with other people in other places, they tend to become less knowledgable and tolerant of different looks, speech, customs, and so on. Over time, the smaller, isolated settings become increasingly xenophobic and paranoid of strangers. No small town is going to put out a "call for adventurers" ... because they won't trust those strangers farther than they can throw them. When a bunch of PCs arrive in town, the doors get shut and locked; the tavern empties out, and at best the PCs get glared at until they are rudely told to get out of town. No one will trade with them ... but they'll sure do what they can to cheat, swindle, and otherwise take advantage of them. Wanderers of all sorts will be poorly regarded (picture historical mistreatment of Romany/gypsy folk).

I can hardly imagine how different sentient races would be treated, and I suspect the "egalitarian norm" D&D has toward different races, religion, sexes, etc would not hold true.

Those aren't necessarily ingredients for a fun, heroic D&D game, unless your starting premise is "local farm boy makes good protecting his home."

 

[haakon1]

Here's a thought: true PoL fits poorly with the baseline adventurer assumption within D&D.

As locals become forced to focus inward on their village, and it isn't safe to travel to interact with other people in other places, they tend to become less knowledgable and tolerant of different looks, speech, customs, and so on. Over time, the smaller, isolated settings become increasingly xenophobic and paranoid of strangers. No small town is going to put out a "call for adventurers" ... because they won't trust those strangers farther than they can throw them. When a bunch of PCs arrive in town, the doors get shut and locked; the tavern empties out, and at best the PCs get glared at until they are rudely told to get out of town. No one will trade with them ... but they'll sure do what they can to cheat, swindle, and otherwise take advantage of them. Wanderers of all sorts will be poorly regarded (picture historical mistreatment of Romany/gypsy folk).

I agree with your view of the implications of a true POL setting for possible reactions by locals to wandering adventures. It sounds like a Western to me -- possibly a 1970s spaghetti Western, possibly High Noon, etc.

I can hardly imagine how different sentient races would be treated, and I suspect the "egalitarian norm" D&D has toward different races, religion, sexes, etc would not hold true.

I think this is a good thing. A role-playing "penalty" for playing a drow in a setting where drow are seen as evil underground dwellers makes sense to me. The "cantina scene" party design is not something I (or my players, or the people I game with when I'm a player) like, so I'm not sure to what extent it's truly the norm, versus a hard core minority -- those who play so often they are jaded with normal tropes.

And if it is now the norm, subverting it should also be fun.

Those aren't necessarily ingredients for a fun, heroic D&D game, unless your starting premise is "local farm boy makes good protecting his home."

Ah, like the traditional hero's journey?

Beyond this, there's scope for the small town kid who discovers a broader world, maybe even helping restore some of the pre-apocalyptic order (like Luke Skywalker, or Kevin Costner's Postman).

Also, even if the world consists of small, isolated survivalist hamlets, they aren't necessarily all hostile to outsiders/afraid to bring in hired guns. The reluctant, last resort hiring of the hired guns makes sense to me.

And there could be an underlying memory of the fallen empire, a religious connections -- like the Roman Catholic Church after the fall of the Roman Empire, or a remnant of the fallen empire -- like the Byzantine Empire -- that are still providing some connections and broader views.

But again, WOTC already has published their POL version, and it likely has little to do with this.