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D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

Undrave

Legend
I did this very intentionally. We have dozens of "5e issue threads" out there, and honestly this one is starting to turn into a standard one where everyone just lists the stuff they don't like about 5e.
Nobody has yet to disagree with my statement regarding the missing Dungeonborn.
not really, what do you think athletes are then... they excel at their one thing, your fighter is just physically fit but not specialized like they are
We’re talking about an epic level fighter here! A level 20 guys who challenges he gods themselves! I expect a guy who makes it to that level to outrun Usain Bolt in full plate while carrying his portable armory of legendary weapons he won from mighty foes. The Wizard can wield cosmic powers but a guy breaking a couple world records is somehow too far for the mast level of DnD?! We’re not talking about a guy who plays softball once a week or something here! The Champion’s level 7 ability is called ‘Remarkable Athlete’, there’s you ‘good but not specialized athlete’ goes. That naughty word should be left behind after level 10.

Augh…

This type of, from my perspective, unreasonable take is what keeps the Fighter in the trash. It’s like you don’t want them to get better when they level up, or their level means less than a Wizard’s level regardless of the fact they take the same XP to reach.
 

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mamba

Legend
We’re talking about an epic level fighter here! A level 20 guys who challenges he gods themselves! I expect a guy who makes it to that level to outrun Usain Bolt in full plate while carrying his portable armory of legendary weapons he won from mighty foes
and I don’t… the real world equivalent to your fighter is someone like Usain Bolt, if he had trained for melee combat rather than dashing a short distance

The Wizard can wield cosmic powers but a guy breaking a couple world records is somehow too far for the mast level of DnD?
I am fine with the Wizard being taken down a notch too, better two…

The saving grace for D&D is that almost no one plays past level 12.

This type of, from my perspective, unreasonable take is what keeps the Fighter in the trash. It’s like you don’t want them to get better when they level up
I want them to have better combat maneuvers, and no, weapon mastery does not cut it.

That does not mean I want them to run like The Flash or jump like Hulk
 
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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I was having trouble articulating what I felt was a true issue with 5e, and this post kind of answered it perfectly.



5e was designed to limit interesting choices.

Think about it. What choices do you make when leveling up your character? Ignoring for the moment feats and multiclass, since they are still labeled optional, and as such didn't receive the balancing time that they needed before publishing. You gain a level in the class you already are. You gain a prescribed number of hit points. Once in your career you choose a subclass. Five times in your career you raise a stat by +2 or two by +1. If you're a spellcaster you pick spells. Warlock has some invocation options, and maybe there are a few subclasses that pick maneuvers or something, but by and large, there are very few choices when building a character.

And even when there are choices, many of them are illusions. Reincarnate is strictly worse than Raise Dead. Eldritch Blast is better for a Warlock than any other damaging cantrip 99.999% of the time. Dancing Lights is a fun spell, but Light does 95% of the job and doesn't use Concentration. Material components are interesting, but just use a focus so you don't have to spend game time plucking rose petals. It doesn't matter what weapon you pick because they all only have one stat, which is what damage die you roll. It doesn't matter what armor you buy because you should just buy the one with the highest AC that you can afford.

But it doesn't end there either. Let's say the DM wants to set up a journey through a harsh wilderness to get to a fabled lost tomb. You need supplies. You need to hunt. You need to find your way. Nope, you have goodberry. You have a ranger who "can't become lost."

You're in a dungeon and a cloaker drops on you. You can't breathe! If you don't kill this thing in 21 rounds of combat, you might suffocate!

You're breaking into the royal treasury past hundreds of guards. Good thing there's a low level spell that breaks the core design principal Bounded Accuracy with respect to stealth, and nothing guards can do to boost their perception.

There's a certain expectation of "the DM can change the rules to suit the campaign," but this requires the DM to know all the rules. What I found as a veteran player but a new DM in 5e, was that I would design an interesting challenge, and it would be foiled by a shoddy rule or a simple non-resource. Then I can change the rule for the future, but the challenge is already gone. Why spend time on it? Even if the encounter "accomplished its goal" by nickel and diming the PCs towards running out of "resources" (read: spell slots), the design time took longer than the game time, and that spell slot will come right back when they rest. Or, they have so many spell slots that they won't miss that one anyway.

Players are in the same boat. You set up a tactically interesting ambush using fog cloud or darkness and then what? You don't get advantage, the enemy doesn't get disadvantage, everyone gets straight rolls. You try to maneuver and you get Opportunity Attacked. You try to grapple or shove and those things don't even do anything. So you just... attack. Your turn comes up and you attack. You wait and your turn comes up again and you attack. At 5th level, you get to attack twice, or your cantrip does two dice instead of one, but it's still not more interesting. You only get one action on your turn, and most of the time, the best way to reduce the enemy to 0 hp and save resources is to just attack.

Maybe if you're very lucky, you have a truly excellent DM, who foils the shoddy rules in advance, and comes up with interesting challenges, and rewrites the whole system to enable their truly excellent adventure. But then it's not 5e any more, is it? And you have to attract players who will accept that this spell doesn't work this way, and that hexblade is banned, and that we're using gritty realism rests sometimes, and that PC death is both likely and permanent, or whatever else is in your hundred page house rules document.

So, it's not that there's one rule that is The True Problem with 5e. It's not that they used the wrong font or that they didn't just reprint the AD&D DMG with a 5e sticker on it. The design philosophy of 5e is the true problem with 5e. It's a wading pool. You can get into 5e, and have a good time. You can stick your feet in while your kids learn, or have a beer with your friends, but you can't swim in it. You can get a bigger wading pool, but it never gets deeper. If you try really hard, you can immerse yourself in it, but then there's no room for anyone else.
Precisely. Fortunately, many of these things are corrected to some degree in Level Up, and the rest I'm working on myself.

I'm perfectly fine with my game not being labeled as 5e by some folks.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Nobody has yet to disagree with my statement regarding the missing Dungeonborn.

We’re talking about an epic level fighter here! A level 20 guys who challenges he gods themselves! I expect a guy who makes it to that level to outrun Usain Bolt in full plate while carrying his portable armory of legendary weapons he won from mighty foes. The Wizard can wield cosmic powers but a guy breaking a couple world records is somehow too far for the mast level of DnD?! We’re not talking about a guy who plays softball once a week or something here! The Champion’s level 7 ability is called ‘Remarkable Athlete’, there’s you ‘good but not specialized athlete’ goes. That naughty word should be left behind after level 10.

Augh…

This type of, from my perspective, unreasonable take is what keeps the Fighter in the trash. It’s like you don’t want them to get better when they level up, or their level means less than a Wizard’s level regardless of the fact they take the same XP to reach.
This is why fighters used to have faster level progression than wizards. Removing that broke the class balance.
 

and I don’t… the real world equivalent to your fighter is someone like Usain Bolt, if he had trained for melee combat rather than dashing a short distance
And I do.

There is obviously no real world equivalent to the fighter, because the fighter is equally as fantastic as the wizard. Whatever physical feats a real human can perform at their absolute peak, that thing a level 20 martial should be able to do, easily.
 

Undrave

Legend
I absolutely don't think the sacrifice was worth it, and I don't think "simplicity and streamlining" should be anyone's top priority in game design.
Why not? You can’t just pollute a game with every single idea that crosses your mind, that’s how you get FATAL. At some point in design, you have to identify and cut the fat.
And that is specifically why I endorse a 1/2 page on illusions which teaches DMs how to be better DMs than suffocating the game with wisdom saves which weakens the School of Illusion. IMO.
Nah, Wisdom save means that the Illusion spells have outcomes you can anticipate, the same way as every other spell school. Just how you can tell certain enemies are probably better at reflex-y defences or fortitude-y defences you can expect which one will be able to tell the issue with your illusions.
Why? That's completely unrelated to being a warrior.

Is it though? Running fast, jumping far, swimming, lifting heavy things, horseback riding, throwing things… Did you know the world record for a javelin throw is over 320 feet? That’s five time the greatest range of a thrown weapon in 5e. And let’s not forget the summer Olympics includes boxing, fencing, judo, karate, taekwondo, wrestling and archery. The summer Olympics seem like things warriors should be good at.
 



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