D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Raiztt]

But is that the same thing as "I actively object to the books providing guidance to DMs on good ways to rule Illusions"?

Because that's what you seem to be doing. I don't think that it can be said enough: Just because the game is fine as-is does not mean that it can't be better.

I'm just being obstinate for the sake of in regards to a specific poster

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm talking about breaking real world record and you immediately jump to The Flash and The Hulk who beyond measurability in terms of strength. That's not a very fair comparison.

That's how it goes.

Either you can only do what a sad, weak D&D player from 1980 can or you are Omniman. And we'll be well damned if anyone but the wizard gets to be Omniman.

 

[Undrave]

If the game had rules for illusions the whole point of playing an illusionist - where what a character can try to "create" is only limited by the caster's (i.e. player's) imagination - would vanish in a heartbeat.

Why? Because sure as shootin' those rules would all focus around limiting what the caster could create as an illusion, rather than how viewers would/could react and-or what the could/would perceive.

I could see the rule being something along the line of "creatures who can see your illusion must succeed a Wisdom saving throw to notice discrepancies that would indicate an illusion." with something like "If a creature is familiar with the landscape, they may gain advantage on the saving throw" when relevant. No need to dictate HOW they react to the illusion, just if they believe it or not.

 

[Raiztt]

That's how it goes.

Either you can only do what a sad, weak D&D player from 1980 can or you are Omniman. And we'll be well damned if anyone but the wizard gets to be Omniman.

Good - the supernatural should be flat out superior to the natural.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If the game had rules for illusions the whole point of playing an illusionist - where what a character can try to "create" is only limited by the caster's (i.e. player's) imagination - would vanish in a heartbeat.

Why? Because sure as shootin' those rules would all focus around limiting what the caster could create as an illusion, rather than how viewers would/could react and-or what the could/would perceive.

That's not actually true.

I've been working on breaking illusions out by intent.

Illusory object makes a thing that behaves and interacts like an object unless the person doing so notices.

Distractions distract or might force enemies to make AoOs.

Traps are traps.

Etc, Etc.

So the illusionist picks the right spell for the job, then describes it how they want. It creates a situation where the illusionist can pick what they want to do mechanically and be free to decide how they do it instead of praying the thing they want is even allowed to work at all.

Same for Suggestion. Imagine if it wasn't written to cause conflict over what everyone sees as 'reasonable'.

 

[Gammadoodler]

the real world equivalent to your fighter is someone like Usain Bolt, if he had trained for melee combat rather than dashing a short distance

Ok. Let's take this hypothetical guy..this Usain Bolt of melee combat. Maybe peak Anderson Silva with a sword..Muhammad Ali in plate mail or something.

And let's move that guy into a D&D context.

Does that guy..Muhammad Ali/Anderson Silva equivalent fight D&D monsters the way D&D fighters fight D&D monsters (e.g. Dragons and Giants)..toe to toe slugging it out until one of them goes down?

I submit that they would not.

This is one of those weird narrative disconnects that comes up often in these discussions, where folks point to the John Rambos, McClanes, and Wicks of action fiction as their target level of capability without reflecting on how poorly that fiction jives with how D&D runs.

D&D melee martials don't get suitcases full of C-4, rocket launchers, and effortless headshots. They will not generally smear mud all over themselves to hide their body heat, creep quietly in the bushes covered in grease paint, or nervously army crawl through ventilation ductwork. They are not setting elaborate improvised booby traps using tripwires, sharpened sticks, and bushels of hand grenades. They are not waiting to engage in melee combat until the beast is trapped or weakened.

Instead they see tractor trailer sized creatures at the height of their powers and say to themselves "I'm gona go in and f...mess that thing up with just this sharpened and/or heavy hunk of metal"

How it's possible to think..Usain Bolt..but with knives or something is beyond me.

 

[Lanefan]

I especially loathe that the adventures are so hard to use as DMs. important information hidden in text blocks or in some keyed room on a map. Seriously, in almost every official dungeon stuff like villains big plan and motivation are in some room description. Give me a goddammn summary at the start. Use bullet points and text highlighting through bold and italics. And most boxed texts are written horribly for game usage.

This one isn't just a 5e thing: all WotC editions have had the same issues with their adventure writing.

The biggest of those issues is too much emphasis goes on fancy layout and spacing, nowhere near enough attention goes to putting the info where a DM needs it right now.

I never understood the complaints about money. I never noticed them, because I actually don't run an economic simulation. Would be weird, because that is definitely not the product I bought.

So what do the characters in your game do with the gold etc. they accrue while adventuring?

 

[Mannahnin]

That's how it goes.

Either you can only do what a sad, weak D&D player from 1980 can or you are Omniman. And we'll be well damned if anyone but the wizard gets to be Omniman.

Good - the supernatural should be flat out superior to the natural.

What's your higher priority?

That the supernatural be superior to the natural, or that two characters of different classes but equal level should be roughly equal in power?

It seems like something has to give, here. Otherwise we run into BMX Bandit / Angel Summoner territory.

And I'm not sure where the steadfast attachment to having 20th (Epic) level Fighters conform to the limitations of or be weaker than real world warriors and athletes comes from. Who are the fictional models for a 20th level Fighter? Who are the examples the rules should allow players to emulate? Beowulf? Hercules? John Carter of Mars?

 

[Vaalingrade]

No need to dictate HOW they react to the illusion, just if they believe it or not.

That's the thing we need to dictate the most. "The T-Rex believes the juicy pile of meat, but it just really wants you to die because this combat is happening no matter what you want, illusionist player."

 

[Undrave]

I want them to have better combat maneuvers, and no, weapon mastery does not cut it.

Ya know, I think it would have been cool if Fighters got more Fighting Styles as they advanced until they could potentially have all the PHB Fighting style by the end of their progression. The Fighting Style could have had stackable effect so you could choose to specialize by taking the same Fighting Style multiple times and improve the bonus or go for versatility. It would have made stuff like Protection (good early on, falls off when enemy gets too many attack) more popular.

Good - the supernatural should be flat out superior to the natural.

Then the Fighter should just stop at level 10. There's no point in continuing afterwards.

So the illusionist picks the right spell for the job, then describes it how they want. It creates a situation where the illusionist can pick what they want to do mechanically and be free to decide how they do it instead of praying the thing they want is even allowed to work at all.

Same for Suggestion. Imagine if it wasn't written to cause conflict over what everyone sees as 'reasonable'.

I think 'Command' should be a closer example for what Illusions could work.