D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Vaalingrade]

That kinda blurs the line with enchantment and mind control effects no?

Nope.

Mind Control is Mind Control and should be keyworded appropriately with effects that interact with it. Illusion is a trick and should be treated accordingly. We only have the one save type that matters for these things. No one actually cares about INT and CHA saves -- It's all Will with a stupider name and worse distribution.

 

[Undrave]

Ah, but you see, they already exist!

You're just coming at it from the wrong end of life. They're not Dungeonborn, they're Dungeondead - in other words, they're the hordes of undead we've been destroying for all these years.

Ah, but you see, the Dragonborn is a playable race that lets you play a watered down dragon, and thus the Dungeonborn should let you play a watered down Dungeon!

 

[Vaalingrade]

Then the Fighter should just stop at level 10. There's no point in continuing afterwards.

Or delete the wizard.

 

[Mannahnin]

This isn't a 5e thing. D&D consistently doesn't know what to do with illusions beyond letting the DM insist that every guard knows every alley in the city and thus would rub their face on any new, mysterious wall the party is hiding behind in order to break the illusion, and every monster ignores better prey, sexy female monsters or bigger threats to eat the human shaped things.

If we had rules, like a Will save or to behave in the way the illusion is trying to instigate, then we'd have something. But we're not allowed rules, only bad rulings.

I'm not sold on this. Why would every illusion spell require a Will save? Because a DM you know insisted that every guard knows every alley in the city at your table?

I'd think a 1/2 a page of advice would go further as per @Kobold Stew.

I don't think these are entirely incompatible positions.

The game could give DMs and players a half page or so of general info and advice on how illusions are supposed to work, and still fall back on a Will save if the DM rules that the monster has reason to disbelieve. You can potentially have BOTH. Powerful illusions which "just work" if the player is creative and the DM agrees that the application makes sense, with the fallback of the Will save if the DM is not convinced/has a real reason why the NPC/monster has access to data which might poke a hole in the illusion.

 

[Lanefan]

I could see the rule being something along the line of "creatures who can see your illusion must succeed a Wisdom saving throw to notice discrepancies that would indicate an illusion." with something like "If a creature is familiar with the landscape, they may gain advantage on the saving throw" when relevant. No need to dictate HOW they react to the illusion, just if they believe it or not.

That's pretty much how I already do it, only I use Int instead of Wis.

 

[Raiztt]

The illusion problem just isn't a problem for me because I'm not bad at DMing I guess

If you know what the player's intent was, and they expended/risked a resource to bring about an effect, and the target failed their save, the PC should achieve their end.

If they conjure an illusionary wall in an alley, the guards chasing after them should just be foiled/confused and the PCs get away.

 

[Undrave]

Or everyone can stop at 13-14, and make sure fighters are sufficiently bad-ass until then.

Eh I could live with that. We don't need all those high level spells.

Nope.

Mind Control is Mind Control and should be keyworded appropriately with effects that interact with it. Illusion is a trick and should be treated accordingly. We only have the one save type that matters for these things. No one actually cares about INT and CHA saves -- It's all Will with a stupider name and worse distribution.

I'm not a big fan of mind control spells anyway so having that aspect folded into illusion could work...

That's pretty much how I already do it, only I use Int instead of Wis.

That's a good pick too. I went WIS because of Perception, but INT is Investigation so that works just as well. Heck, maybe characters trained in Investigation should get to apply the skill bonus to their roll against illusion! Because they're good at picking out details!

"Hey, wait a minute! That ogre's foot is phasing through that rock on the ground! That's not a real ogre!"

 

[Mannahnin]

For me, the supernatural should be flat out more powerful than the mundane. The supernatural is by definition what is above or beyond what is natural or mundane. Which is to say, I don't think that classes should be equal. The only way a fighter should be able to get onto the even footing with a wizard or caster should be if they have magic items to shore up the difference.

How do you feel about Gygax telling us in 1E that all high level characters are bestowed and empowered with divine favor (whether or not they've sworn to a deity) because of their increasing significance in the cosmic balance/struggle? That hit points and saving throws, beyond a certain point, factor in this divine favor and endowment?

Who are your preferred examples of max-level fantasy Fighters, whom D&D characters should match? I suggested Beowulf, Hercules, and John Carter of Mars.

 

[Undrave]

The illusion problem just isn't a problem for me because I'm not bad at DMing I guess

If you know what the player's intent was, and they expended/risked a resource to bring about an effect, and the target failed their save, the PC should achieve their end.

If they conjure an illusionary wall in an alley, the guards chasing after them should just be foiled/confused and the PCs get away.

Maybe the books should try to make the bad DMs better?

 

[Lanefan]

Let's not pretend that most TSR modules didn't have similar issues. With excessively long descriptions and vital content often buried in the middle of paragraphs.

I find the early ones aren't (usually) too bad (unless they were written by Gygax himself, at which point all bets are off) - the stat blocks are nice and compact, the write-ups are usually decent, and so on.

The two big issues I have with TSR-era modules are (all) editing issues where the map doesn't agree with the description and (later ones) poorly-written boxed descriptions.

This is something OSR publishers like Necrotic Gnome have done invaluable work on in recent years, pioneering clearer layouts and formatting which WotC should certainly learn from if they want their modules to be more usable at the table.

Nice!