D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Micah Sweet]

Well at a guess I would argue that this is why they aren’t doing more detailed rules. They would probably know better than you or I what their customers want.

Let’s be fair here. DnD in any edition has not had good ship combat rules.

The biggest problem is scale. DnD is terrible when you have 20-30 combatants. Over 100? Sure that’s not too bad. You can abstract a lot into mass combat rules. But 20-60? It just doesn’t work worth’s damn.

You would need better mass combat rules than D&D has ever put out, that's for sure.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The push back I got was, “why is my swordsman shooting a cannon? Shooting a cannon has nothing to do with my concept”

Replace “cannon” with every other part of crewing a ship and it’s the same.

Honestly I think this is why 5e has the ship combat rules it has. Players have strong concepts of what their character should be doing and pushing them outside of that box results in players checking out of the game.

I kinda see their point even if it’s not one I share. But since that is their stance, it doesn’t really matter what mechanics I use. The mechanics aren’t the issue.

So, as I said, I’ve completely abandoned the ship combat system and start ship combat at the point of boarding.

This is another proof that modern 5e's play philosophy is very much in opposition to my own.

 

[Maxperson]

The push back I got was, “why is my swordsman shooting a cannon? Shooting a cannon has nothing to do with my concept”

Replace “cannon” with every other part of crewing a ship and it’s the same.

Honestly I think this is why 5e has the ship combat rules it has. Players have strong concepts of what their character should be doing and pushing them outside of that box results in players checking out of the game.

I kinda see their point even if it’s not one I share. But since that is their stance, it doesn’t really matter what mechanics I use. The mechanics aren’t the issue.

So, as I said, I’ve completely abandoned the ship combat system and start ship combat at the point of boarding.

Have you pointed out that their swordsman is still shooting a cannon with the simpler combat system? And that the others are still doing the stuff outside of their concepts? That's how ships and ship combats work. The simpler system just puts those tasks into the background, but they still need to be done.

As an aside, I'm curious what they're doing sailing a ship if none of their concepts include sailing a ship.

 

[billd91]

This is another proof that modern 5e's play philosophy is very much in opposition to my own.

It’s not 5e’s philosophy. This kind of thing has been going on a much longer time than the last 10 years. I remember discussion in Dragon magazine back in the 1e days whether paladins would use ranged weapons. It’s the same thing. People taking a rigid approach to the idea of their character to the point they balk at being at all pragmatic.

 

[Hussar]

This is another proof that modern 5e's play philosophy is very much in opposition to my own.

5e? Dude I’ve been chasing this whale since the 2e days.

This has zero to do with “kids these days”.

 

[Lanefan]

Well at a guess I would argue that this is why they aren’t doing more detailed rules. They would probably know better than you or I what their customers want.

Let’s be fair here. DnD in any edition has not had good ship combat rules.

The biggest problem is scale. DnD is terrible when you have 20-30 combatants. Over 100? Sure that’s not too bad. You can abstract a lot into mass combat rules. But 20-60? It just doesn’t work worth’s damn.

The bigger problem, in WotC-era D&D at least, is that in ship-v-ship combat a "combat round" of maneuvers, lining up broadsides, etc. would be measured in minutes where at the individual character level a normal round of combat is just a few seconds.

Original 1e with its 1-minute combat rounds was actually much easier to adapt for this as the combat round didn't have to be extended by all that much for it to work.

 

[Hussar]

Have you pointed out that their swordsman is still shooting a cannon with the simpler combat system? And that the others are still doing the stuff outside of their concepts? That's how ships and ship combats work. The simpler system just puts those tasks into the background, but they still need to be done.

As an aside, I'm curious what they're doing sailing a ship if none of their concepts include sailing a ship.

Again, the preaching to the converted.

I’m telling you the reasons I get for not wanting to engage in ship combat. These are not my reasons.

But at a certain point I basically just threw up my hands and stopped trying to hold back the tide.

And, again, “shooting the canon” isn’t swashbuckling is it? They want to be swinging from the ropes and sword fighting on the ship. Spending an hour doing ranged duels is an hour not spent doing what they actually want to do.

Again, why is my great axe wielding barbarian shooting a cannon?

 

[Micah Sweet]

5e? Dude I’ve been chasing this whale since the 2e days.

This has zero to do with “kids these days”.

I don't understand the idea behind insisting that everything in the game revolve around the PCs. Your group apparently won't take any action that isn't 100% on point with their character concept, regardless of circumstance it seems. That just mystifies me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again, the preaching to the converted.

I’m telling you the reasons I get for not wanting to engage in ship combat. These are not my reasons.

But at a certain point I basically just threw up my hands and stopped trying to hold back the tide.

And, again, “shooting the canon” isn’t swashbuckling is it? They want to be swinging from the ropes and sword fighting on the ship. Spending an hour doing ranged duels is an hour not spent doing what they actually want to do.

Again, why is my great axe wielding barbarian shooting a cannon?

Because they're out if range?

 

[Lanefan]

The push back I got was, “why is my swordsman shooting a cannon? Shooting a cannon has nothing to do with my concept”

Replace “cannon” with every other part of crewing a ship and it’s the same.

Honestly I think this is why 5e has the ship combat rules it has. Players have strong concepts of what their character should be doing and pushing them outside of that box results in players checking out of the game.

If they're that unwilling to adapt their characters' in-game actions to suit the situation I don't think you're the problem.

Lanefan the character is a swordsman as well, and not the wisest of sorts; but even he realizes that not every situation can be dealt with via swordplay. Situations where the closest the enemy ever gets is still 100+ feet away most certainly fall into that category.