D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Neonchameleon]

I have no objection to games where the stats of every piece of equipment is important. Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom is an amazing game and Baldur's Gate 3 is incredible - and both those games came out earlier this year. However both of them are computer games - and a computer is much better at memorisation than either a DM or a player is. And the items have much more physical reality than they ever can with descriptions, while much more and better tracking is done by a computer than can ever be done by either a player or a DM.

And this is my fundamental problem with detailed rules and equipment lists. Every second I spend handling such things in a game and every rule for every little thing like a spade is a second and a line with humans trying to do something that a computer is simply better suited to. By contrast the mechanical detail light success-with-consequences and encouraged character development based on what has happened in this specific game is humans doing what humans do better than computers. Which is why they are getting more and more popular and we are getting better and better at writing them.

 

[M_Natas]

That's been the subject of several other threads. How badly 5e books compare to past edition in volume of information and options for DM's and players. There's not a single 5e book that compares in detail, options or amount of data to past editions. (I don't know 4e ). You really don't get much for your money in my opinion from WOTC these days.

You can get the 2e books quite cheap on DMsGuild, even as Reprint

 

[Oofta]

I mean, if we're going full action movie, then the heroes in a franchise (campaign) don't really need rules for dying either do they, because I don't think that happens much anymore?

I thought 5E was easy mode where nobody ever dies?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

There are of course these medium sized issues of stealth or exploration subsystems not working well enough or being developed enough, but those I'd consider blemishes. (I hope they'd be fixed of course.) But what I'd consider more fundamental issues is resource management and recovery mechanisms. The expected amount of encounters per day is just absurdly high and basically everything recovers all at once by overnight sleep. And in Next they seem to be doubling down on this by moving even more stuff under long rest. It creates weird gameplay where there cannot be any mechanical consequences that last more than a day. Using gritty rests alleviated this a bit, but it still leaves the weirdness of everything resetting at once. I feel that more incremental resource recovery mechanism that wouldn't be all or nothing would be much more flexible for accommodating different pacings and would also probably feel more verisimilitudous.

 

[codo]

I have no objection to games where the stats of every piece of equipment is important. Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom is an amazing game and Baldur's Gate 3 is incredible - and both those games came out earlier this year. However both of them are computer games - and a computer is much better at memorisation than either a DM or a player is. And the items have much more physical reality than they ever can with descriptions, while much more and better tracking is done by a computer than can ever be done by either a player or a DM.

And this is my fundamental problem with detailed rules and equipment lists. Every second I spend handling such things in a game and every rule for every little thing like a spade is a second and a line with humans trying to do something that a computer is simply better suited to. By contrast the mechanical detail light success-with-consequences and encouraged character development based on what has happened in this specific game is humans doing what humans do better than computers. Which is why they are getting more and more popular and we are getting better and better at writing them.

100% this. I don't want detailed rules for every possible piece of equipment. Truthfully if D&D had them, I wound probably switch to a different system. I, and the groups I play with are here for heroic action, and over the top Melodrama, not micromanaging mundane details like how much earth someone can dig in an hour. We are all busy adults now, and would rather spend our limited game time fighting dragons and avenging dead lovers instead of pouring over the books to calculate digging rates.

It actually gives me bad flashbacks to 3e. The problem with including detailed rules for everything, is that players expect you to use them, particularly in a system like 3e where character build options often interact with those rules. When I have a character who wants to climb a wall I just want to say, "It looks rather difficult, it is a DC 15 athletics to climb it", instead of having to open the books and have to cross reference several charts of material type, how rough it is, and the weather. That sort of detailed nitpicking just kills all suspense and momentum, and can really kill immersion in the game. When I am DMing the fewer times I need to stop and reference the books the better.

Having detailed rules for everything also requires a lot more prep work for running a sessions. instead of just making up the difficulty on the spot (based on the circumstances), a DM needs to plan ahead, and look up and cross reference different charts while planning the session. Instead of just deciding that the difficulty of breaking down a door is a DC 15, the DM needs the look up a head of time what material and thickness the door needs to be to have a DC 15 to break down.

 

[M_Natas]

I have no objection to games where the stats of every piece of equipment is important. Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom is an amazing game and Baldur's Gate 3 is incredible - and both those games came out earlier this year. However both of them are computer games - and a computer is much better at memorisation than either a DM or a player is. And the items have much more physical reality than they ever can with descriptions, while much more and better tracking is done by a computer than can ever be done by either a player or a DM.

And this is my fundamental problem with detailed rules and equipment lists. Every second I spend handling such things in a game and every rule for every little thing like a spade is a second and a line with humans trying to do something that a computer is simply better suited to. By contrast the mechanical detail light success-with-consequences and encouraged character development based on what has happened in this specific game is humans doing what humans do better than computers. Which is why they are getting more and more popular and we are getting better and better at writing them.

I was thinking equipment cards like similar in the Essentials kit or the magic item cards. You have the rules on the card and only read them when you need the equipment. You don't need to remember them. And it's something cool to handout to the players. So players now can have decks of equipment. You can also have some blank cards for equipment that wasn't on the list.
It can even help with tracking encumberance.
Like, just spitballing ideas here, you could have 3 or 5 different card sizes based on bulkiness and weight.
Let's say Card Sizes 0.1, 0.5, 1, 2 and 3. Or not even Card sizes, just weight classes.
That's their weightclass.
You can carry your Strength score times 2 (or 3, its just an example, would need to do the math for definite numbers).
You just add the card sizes of the cards you have together, if they are lower no problem. If they are higher you are encumbered.
So lets say a character with Strength 10 has a carrying capacity of 20.
Now he could carry a plate Mail (size 3), a sword (size 1), a Backpack (size 2) and 10 rations and 5 torches (each size 0.5), and a bedroll size 2, 30 Gold, per 10 coins 0.1 Size. Total =15,8.

You can produce that cheaply or even give it out as a PDF, and if people want to use encumbrance they can use the cards and if not, not.
Having a deck of cards could be less distracting than trying to squeeze everything on a character sheet und calculate the weights.

 

[M_Natas]

There are of course these medium sized issues of stealth or exploration subsystems not working well enough or being developed enough, but those I'd consider blemishes. (I hope they'd be fixed of course.) But what I'd consider more fundamental issues is resource management and recovery mechanisms. The expected amount of encounters per day is just absurdly high and basically everything recovers all at once by overnight sleep. And in Next they seem to be doubling down on this by moving even more stuff under long rest. It creates weird gameplay where there cannot be any mechanical consequences that last more than a day. Using gritty rests alleviated this a bit, but it still leaves the weirdness of everything resetting at once. I feel that more incremental resource recovery mechanism that wouldn't be all or nothing would be much more flexible for accommodating different pacings and would also probably feel more verisimilitudous.

While I agree, that would be nice to have different pacing and more incremental resource recovery - keeping track on it at the table would be harder.
I think at the moment Short and Long Rest are at an Equilibrium between realistic and easy to play. The OneDnD changes pushing them more in the easy to play direction.

 

[Lanefan]

Why would a stein be made of wood and not ceramic or leather?

Dunno - but it's the most common way they're depicted in fantasy art, movies, etc. (when Pippin says his famous "It comes in pints?" line they're drinking out of wooden steins, for example).

That said, I suppose there's a semantic difference between a mug and a stein; I use the terms interchangably for these purposes.

 

[overgeeked]

But when they need to dig up something they're using shovels and/or pickaxes.

Yes...but the physics involved don't matter to the story or the movie. So determining how many cubic feet of dirt you can move in so many hours completely fails to understand what purpose the shovel serves in the movie. It's a prop the actor can manipulate to get a shot of a sweaty Tom Cruise or Tom Hardy, or some other Tom, it's not to determine how long it takes to dig a tunnel. Like how long it takes to travel somewhere in most movies. Everyone travels at the speed of plot. Indiana Jones and the red line travel montage. How long does it take? There is a real-world mathematically correct answer...that is also completely irrelevant to anything in the movie. You can insist that the answer matters and should be known, but you'd be taking the wrong end of things. It's the drama and tension that matters, not the miles per hour.

 

[Oofta]

It's come up for me when the party wants to excavate a collapsed tunnel in a dungeon or break through some walls. Also, I often run a "Seven Samurai" style adventure for lower level parties. The party needs to make decisions as to building earthworks, training peasants, &c. You can have the fighter dig out defenses, a team of peasants, or have the fighter train the peasants to be men at arms. How do you want to plan your defenses and spend the character's time?

If you have tools that do a thing, and weak spells do a thing, and strong spells do a thing, I find it useful to delineate the differences. And, yes, this information should be available to players and DMs.

Yes...but the physics involved don't matter to the story or the movie. So determining how many cubic feet of dirt you can move in so many hours completely fails to understand what purpose the shovel serves in the movie. It's a prop the actor can manipulate to get a shot of a sweaty Tom Cruise or Tom Hardy, or some other Tom, it's not to determine how long it takes to dig a tunnel. Like how long it takes to travel somewhere in most movies. Everyone travels at the speed of plot. Indiana Jones and the red line travel montage. How long does it take? There is a real-world mathematically correct answer...that is also completely irrelevant to anything in the movie.

I would say that for the most part, things like shovels and whatnot are props. But it just varies. If someone wants to set up the equivalent of a Roman Marching Camp perhaps having shovels and pick axes are a good thing to have. If you don't care about that kind of stuff, then it's just something you can ignore. I assume people ignore quite a few items. Anyone ever purchased a vial of perfume or a bucket? Meanwhile I had a PC that bought fishing tackle and some bells to set up a cheap perimeter warning system. So yeah, even if most people didn't buy that kind of stuff, I appreciated it was there for that particular PC. For other PCs? I would never bother.

On the other hand I simply don't think you need a rulebook telling you what you can find just as easily with a quick search.