D&D 5E What are there so few 4th level cleric spells?

[Stalker0]

My player was commenting about this, just having reached 7th level. He was like, "man there are just no options for cleric spells at the 4th level, what gives?"

Having never thought about it, I checked, and holy moly.... there are SO FEW spells at 4th level for clerics! 3rd level, great variety. 5th, solid. But 4th, its like someone literally forgot about that level.

And it seems unique to clerics, wizards, druids, sorcs, even bards all get a bigger variety than clerics.


Its frankly just a bit weird, why is there such a dearth of cleric spells at that level?

 

[jgsugden]

They don't add a lot of 4th level spells because clerics get access to all of the spells on the list. It is one reason why their list is so contained. 4th is very contained, but there are good options.

Death Ward (as it does not require concentration), and Banishment are strong spells, as is upcasting Spiritual Weapon to 2d8+Wis each round and upcasting Spirit Guardians as that additional d8 is delivered every round as well.

 

[FireLance]

5e also saw the loss of a few iconic 4th-level cleric spells. Cure serious wounds (1e and 2e)/cure critical wounds (3e) got folded into upcast cure wounds, detect lie (1e and 2e)/discern lies (3e) and neutralize poison were probably deemed unnecessary due to zone of truth and protection from poison, sticks to snakes was last seen as a 4th-level spell in 2e, and imbue with spell ability just disappeared.

 

[Smackpixi]

Why are there so forking many cleric spells in general? Even if you’re just using the PHB spells, 8 new spells all of which you automatically know? That’s a problem? He’s only ever gonna use one or two. I get people like options but…I mean one of them is banishment…but whatever, get that Kobald Press magic book if you want, double spells. If you like or players like, i’m more into limited options so people learn to use and maximize them.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@Stalker0 here is our revised Cleric spell list:

We've rebalanced all the class spell lists to balance out the numbers and removed concentration. There is MUCH less overlap between classes now, making each class spell list more distinct that RAW. If you want the others, I'll post a PDF of them all.

NOTE: Jinxes are what we call attack/damage cantrips. Otherwise, they are just cantrips.

 

[tetrasodium]

5e also saw the loss of a few iconic 4th-level cleric spells. Cure serious wounds (1e and 2e)/cure critical wounds (3e) got folded into upcast cure wounds, detect lie (1e and 2e)/discern lies (3e) and neutralize poison were probably deemed unnecessary due to zone of truth and protection from poison, sticks to snakes was last seen as a 4th-level spell in 2e, and imbue with spell ability just disappeared.

Without checking I bet there was a nonzero number of lower level noncleric spells that clerics got as 4th level spells ack when spells had different levels for different classes

edit: 3.5 had

• discern lies clr4/pal3
• magic weapon clr4 pal/sor/wiz3
• neutralize poison brd4/dru3/pal4/rgr3
• poison clr4/dru3
• repel vermin clr4/dru4/rgr3
• tongues clr4/ sor/wiz3 brd2

Some of those spells are replaced & others are gone but each class & higher/lower level cleric spells had similar overlap where X would get Y's lower level spell at a higher level so the result was pretty dramatic & made a big difference both if the other class was in the group & if the other class wasn't.

 

[dave2008]

@Stalker0 here is our revised Cleric spell list:

View attachment 255853
View attachment 255854

We've rebalanced all the class spell lists to balance out the numbers and removed concentration. There is MUCH less overlap between classes now, making each class spell list more distinct that RAW. If you want the others, I'll post a PDF of them all.

NOTE: Jinxes are what we call attack/damage cantrips. Otherwise, they are just cantrips.

Nice work! I would like to see the rest of them.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Nice work! I would like to see the rest of them.

Here you go.

A couple things to keep in mind:

1. As I said, jinxes are just cantrips. We separated them out because in our MOD they are limited.
2. Bard is the arcane half-caster, like Paladins and Rangers.
3. Paladins and Rangers get cantrips (only) at level 1.
4. Paladins are known spell casters, not prepared casters. Only the full-casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) are prepared casters.
5. We don't use Artificers, so they aren't on our list.
6. Concentration has been removed from many spells.
7. "High Magic" (6th+ level spells) are completely unique, there is absolutely NO overlap for full casters, making them very unique.

Finally, Wizards have drastically reduced spell lists! Also, some "iconic" spells might have been moved or limited, however, if you look at each list individually, hopefully you'll feel there are still plenty of options for each class and that they are well-represented.

If there is anything that screams out "WHAT THE HECK!?" let me know.

 

[Redwizard007]

Here you go.

A couple things to keep in mind:

1. As I said, jinxes are just cantrips. We separated them out because in our MOD they are limited.
2. Bard is the arcane half-caster, like Paladins and Rangers.
3. Paladins and Rangers get cantrips (only) at level 1.
4. Paladins are known spell casters, not prepared casters. Only the full-casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) are prepared casters.
5. We don't use Artificers, so they aren't on our list.
6. Concentration has been removed from many spells.
7. "High Magic" (6th+ level spells) are completely unique, there is absolutely NO overlap for full casters, making them very unique.

View attachment 255858

Finally, Wizards have drastically reduced spell lists! Also, some "iconic" spells might have been moved or limited, however, if you look at each list individually, hopefully you'll feel there are still plenty of options for each class and that they are well-represented.

If there is anything that screams out "WHAT THE HECK!?" let me know.

I'm curious. What did you give the bard to balance the loss of full casting?

 

[Laurefindel]

@DND_Reborn , Well, now you've done it! I demand to see your bard class! (perhaps in PM not to derail this thread further?)