What are your beefs with the d20 system?

[francisca]

Combat is 1d20 + BAB + Various Bonuses VS. AC

Simple.

If they want to know what their options are, open the PHB to the combat chapter, and hand it to them. If they arent intelligent enough to read (well unless they are young, and i mean under 10 or so), then they...bleh i'll stop there, too off topic, i apologize.

Ahem.
One rule for combat, Its listed above. If someone wants to know what their options are, let them play Q&A. The basic "can I do this? What if I do that?" scenario where they attempt it and learn from their mistakes. The game is FAR more fun that way.

Yeah. Right. Simple. Thanks for clarifying that. Simple, as in:

PC: OK, I get +18 on this roll.
DM: How do you get 18?
PC: Well I got this feat from Ferret's Essential Whoop-Ass PowerGamer, and I get a synergy bonus with (blah blah blah)
DM: Show me.
(endless page flipping, other players are rolling eyes)
PC: It's here somewhere....

The mechanic is simple. The rules/feat/skills/etc that all add into that misc modifier can be a long, tedious process to figure out, and is therefore complex.

Now as a DM, it's my call what to allow into the game, so maybe the Ferret book won't make it, and that particular example won't really happen. But there is enough in the PHB to sort through to make it a real pain in the neck quite often. Not only does this slow down game play, but it makes creating meaningful NPCs quite a chore, when it should be fun.

So to summarize my big beef #1: The mechanic is simple, but the modifiers which apply are often complex to figure out.

Coupled with the fact that you use this same mechanic/process for *everything*, and by that I mean potentially every action, you end up with a rules-heavy system. No wonder they came up with take 10/20. Sure, it's handy to use the same mechanic for everything, but is it easier to remember which die to pickup for whatever mechanic you need to roll for or is it easier to argue about what misc modifiers apply to the given situation? Probably depends on the players.

So, to summarize my big beef #2: There's a rule and about a million potential modifers for everything. Therefore, much of the DM's discretion has been removed from the game.

On one hand, I agree with the beef that as characters advance, the roll becomes less important. Reminds me of Tunnels and Trolls. On the other hand, experienced characters should have their actions determined by skill, rather than random rolls.

 

[jmucchiello]

Okay, I don't know GURPS, so I'll just repeat: I'd like a system that did for skills what 3rd Edition D&D did for combat proficiencies.

Here, find out if GURPS is what you seek. GURPS has an excellent skill system that does not lose too much of its oomph in the lite PDF linked above.

 

[Mercule]

The mechanic is simple. The rules/feat/skills/etc that all add into that misc modifier can be a long, tedious process to figure out, and is therefore complex.

It's only complex because of the proliferation of suppliments on the market. When you've got 43 books you're referrencing, that's gonna happen.

I remember the same sort of thing happenning back in 1E. There were multiple spells/classes/what-have-you with identical names or concepts that came out of Dragon or Role-Aides or something else. Some were balanced, some weren't. Either way, you could still derail a game session when you were trying to find just the right version of what you were looking for.

The whole complaint about d20 being too complex, especially to teach to newbies, is a lot like complaining that math is hard. It simply isn't. Calculus is hard, but math can be quite easy. That's why they teach it to 6 and 7 year olds.

D20 is the same way. If you use the three core books, you can make it complex, but it can also be pretty straightforward and easy to teach/learn. If you're adding in all the splat books or 3rd party products or starting an epic level campaign from scratch, then you're doing calculus (so to speak, I've never actually had to use derivitives in a game). And you volunteered for it.

If you're trying to introduce a newbie to the game using all that stuff, then you're trying to teach calculus to second graders and I have all the sympathy for you that I would that second grade teacher. Especially one who was foolish enough to volunteer for it.

In the last month, we added an almost completely green player to our 13th level group. She's playing a Ranger and has had very little trouble figuring out what's going on. Within the first couple of sessions, she'd stopped asking about figuring out her die rolls. About all she continued to need help on was spells effects. And she's only there because she wants to hang out with her boyfriend.

In August, we added another newbie to the group. She's to the point now where she's able to offer sound advice to the latest addition. The only questions she asks now deal with fine tuning and tweaking the little things that really give her that extra edge statistically. In other words, she's already at the algebra level. Heck, she started by playing a tweaked Rogue/Fighter/Deepwoods Sniper.

In any case, these two don't exactly make me inclined to buy into any "complexity" issue with d20. I don't even think it's a matter of having good teachers in the group -- we explain "skill + die roll + mods > DC" help them run through the base calculations once and then throw 'em to the wolves, so to speak.

IMNSHO, you pretty much have to be trying to screw up introducing a newbie to d20 or to move you game to an overly complex point.

 

[Umbran]

The mechanic is simple. The rules/feat/skills/etc that all add into that misc modifier can be a long, tedious process to figure out, and is therefore complex.

Minor quibble - long and tedious does not equate to complex. Digging a deep hole is long and tedious, but it is hardly a complicated process.

Same for the modifiers - I fully agree that for some characters, working with them becomes long and tedious and slow. But it takes little in the way of mental gymnastics. The names of all the feats, spells, and items are right there. You just look each up in turn. Very simple, yet it can take a day and a half.

 

[francisca]

It's only complex because of the proliferation of suppliments on the market. When you've got 43 books you're referrencing, that's gonna happen.

Which I addressed.

The whole complaint about d20 being too complex, especially to teach to newbies, is a lot like complaining that math is hard. It simply isn't. Calculus is hard, but math can be quite easy. That's why they teach it to 6 and 7 year olds.

Fair enough. Maybe complex is the wrong term. How about "pain in the rear end to look up and not clearly defined when you find the reference"?

And I really don't get why you went on and on about bringing in new players and teaching them the game. Given the d20 mechanic, it is easy to teach new players the game, especially when compared to 1E. I never said it wasn't.

What I said, essentially, is flipping through pages in the middle of a combat to figure out what misc modifers apply to the given situation detracts from the game. This thread is about what beef we have with d20, not how easy it is to teach, afterall.

 

[francisca]

Minor quibble - long and tedious does not equate to complex. Digging a deep hole is long and tedious, but it is hardly a complicated process.

Same for the modifiers - I fully agree that for some characters, working with them becomes long and tedious and slow. But it takes little in the way of mental gymnastics. The names of all the feats, spells, and items are right there. You just look each up in turn. Very simple, yet it can take a day and a half.

Yep, you're absolutley right. Maybe I'm just suffering from "option anxiety" .

 

[Mercule]

Fair enough. Maybe complex is the wrong term. How about "pain in the rear end to look up and not clearly defined when you find the reference"?

And I really don't get why you went on and on about bringing in new players and teaching them the game. Given the d20 mechanic, it is easy to teach new players the game, especially when compared to 1E. I never said it wasn't.

Someone made a remark about teaching newbies previously. I thought it was you. Sorry for the mix-up.

Also, learning curve is a reasonable indicator of complexity. If someone can come in and hit the ground running (or walking at a decent pace), then the task probably wasn't particularly complex.

As far as the "pain in the rear" goes, that sounds more like it's a problem with the layout/editing/whatever of the books than with the system. I totally agree there. I recently had an issue with Tremorsense that I never did find the answer explicitly stated anywhere, but could figure it out by cross-referrencing a couple of things -- not a problem with the rules, necessarily, just the presentation. But, if I can whine about the TWF Ranger, you can whine about editing.

The part that isn't poor layout is probably related to the fact that d20 handles a lot of options, should you choose to use them. Most of the options weren't even available in prior editions (or many other games, for that matter). Over all, I think the way d20 handles those options is cleaner and less complex then pretty much any alternative I've seen, though.

 

[Nighthawk]

There is one thing I would add to the other points raised in this thread. I realize that it is unlikely to occur at all, but in my perfect world, the spells would be looked over and reworked. I think they are in need of a fine-tuning process. Such a task would require great amounts of time and effort, so I believe that it will forever be an unrealistic dream of mine.

 

[woodelf]

Combat is 1d20 + BAB + Various Bonuses VS. AC

Simple.

If they want to know what their options are, open the PHB to the combat chapter, and hand it to them. If they arent intelligent enough to read (well unless they are young, and i mean under 10 or so), then they...bleh i'll stop there, too off topic, i apologize.

Ahem.
One rule for combat, Its listed above. If someone wants to know what their options are, let them play Q&A. The basic "can I do this? What if I do that?" scenario where they attempt it and learn from their mistakes. The game is FAR more fun that way.

That's fine, if the GM runs it that way. But if the GM runs it by the book, you need to read the combat chapter. And, i dunno about the 3.5E PH, but the D&D3E PH is a morass in the combat chapter. I'm no intellectual slouch, but parsing the rules in the combat chapter is no mean feat. Especially since several of the combat rules aren't in the combat chapter--they're in the feats or class descriptions or skill descriptions. In fact, we didn't even realize we were doing things wrong on a couple of minor points until i read the d20 SRD (which is *much* clearer and better-organized).