*Deleted by user*
I’m not saying berate yourself, I’m saying enjoy yourself. Rather than let the plot holes ruin the movie for you, fill them in. It might salvage the movie for you, or it might not, but either way you pushed yourself creatively, which is always good for creative people (which DMs are) to do.I hope that's not what he (iserith) meant.
Because that is ... the worst. No offense.*
Do you regularly go to bad movies and say, "It's not that the bad movie was bad, it's that I was bad for not properly explaining to myself how good the movie was."
I mean, why have standards at all?
PS- I really don't think you understood the whole idea behind the no prize.
*EDIT. I'm not trying to be too harsh, but this is saying, "Hey, that thing that doesn't work for you? Instead of changing it, or choosing a system that works better for you, how about you berate yourself not being able to more effectively lie to yourself? The problem isn't the rules, it's YOU."
I don't see why that's so unbelievable. If I'm the sort of person who nitpicks and is bothered by every little inconsistency or rule in a game that doesn't jive with how I think things should work, that's on me. I can change the rules. I can demand other people don't "metagame" or whatever. But I can also just choose not to be that person.Yeah, except that these vague platitudes seem to be meaningless.
But if your solution to issues of a suspension of disbelief when watching something is to "change yourself," then yes, we have a fundamental disagreement.
Most people would think that, as a general rule (and internal consistency is big part of this) when someone is creating fiction, part of that ability when it comes to good fiction is the ability to suspend disbelief for the audience.
...this has to be the most inane argument I've seen. I just realized that you really are suggesting that when someone produces something that isn't internally consistent (for example), the best course of action is to "change oneself."
If something non-sensical happens in the fiction, then I have every right (and obligation) to decry the fiction as non-sensical. By doing so, we can work to build a fiction that makes more sense. Making up by own explanation does nothing to actually fix anything.Your belief can’t cause something to be true, but it also can’t cause something not to be true. when a thing happens in the game, it is true in the fiction whether you believe it or not. If you refuse to come up with or accept any explanations of how it could be true, that’s on you.
I'd rather be dissatisfied by the truth than believe a lie.Obviously the reason is that the writer made a mistake. And yet, it’s canon. It happened. Come up with an explanation, or be dissatisfied, the choice is yours. Personally, I don’t really enjoy being dissatisfied.
Of course you have that right. I never claimed otherwise. But it’s definitely not an obligation, and it’s also going to harm your ability to enjoy fiction.If something non-sensical happens in the fiction, then I have every right (and obligation) to decry the fiction as non-sensical.
Sure it does. If the explanation you come up with is plausible and satisfying to you, that fixes the problem of you being dissatisfied with something you found implausible. It doesn’t fix that problem for other people, but other people might or might not have that problem. If a lot of people do, they might share their explanations, and develop a collective consensus on what the best one is. Sometimes such fanon even ends up getting elevated to canon.By doing so, we can work to build a fiction that makes more sense. Making up by own explanation does nothing to actually fix anything.
It’s fiction dude, the whole story is a lie.I'd rather be dissatisfied by the truth than believe a lie.
Yes. I’m not even that bug of a Star Wars fan, it’s just a random bit of trivia I happened to pick up.Do you ever watch other programs not set in space?
Sure, if you find that answer satisfying. If not, come up with something else. Or don’t, I don’t really care, but I’m going to be over here enjoying movies instead of nitpicking them.But you realize that even restricted to programs in space, there is more than Star Wars, right? Do all these shows have these same devices?
Yes.Do you even understand what suspension of disbelief means, and why this is an example used?
A different sort of creativity, but yeah, creating rules systems is a creative exercise for sure.Great. Do you know what else stimulates creativity? Making rules to make the game more enjoyable and immersive for the participants, instead of saying, "All the X-Wings have little PEW PEW PEW boxes, 'cuz I'm smart. Deal with it."
On the recommendation of others, I watched the first season of Narcos on Netflix since I have some connection to the area where the events of the show take place. Having lived there for some time, I noticed right away that, while the local slang was being used, the actors did not have the correct accent. While it struck me as being out of place, I did not permit this to overshadow what was an otherwise excellent program. I chose not to let it take me out of the story. I simply focused and ignored this inconsistency. Pablo Escobar was no less Pablo because the accent was wrong. I chose not to be the kind of person for whom the show would be ruined because of this issue. I chose instead to be the kind of person who sometimes notices these things, but doesn't let it interfere with being immersed in the story.The personal is usually self-explanatory; people with a great amount of knowledge in one area often find it hard to overlook glaring issues; doctors might find it harder to overlook flaws in a bad TV show about doctors, for example, or, as @Sacrosanct noted, people with military experience have trouble with certain depictions of the military.
It's not dismissive at all. I recognize it as a real problem, one that I've had personally, but overcame. I also stated that there are a number of solutions and that I preferred one in particular because it is useful in more areas than just watching movies or playing D&D. I can't control the casting of Narcos. I can't control how a TV show writes its stories. But I can control myself. And so that's the best place to start in my view.Saying, however, that if someone has a problem with immersion (or the later seasons of Heroes) that the reason problem is them is both dismissive and obnoxious in equal measure.
You're still trying to pass the burden for bad writing from the writer to the audience. The problem isn't that my standards are too high. The problem is that the quality of the product is too low.If the explanation you come up with is plausible and satisfying to you, that fixes the problem of you being dissatisfied with something you found implausible.
The inconsistency is there, regardless of whether anyone notices it. If we're going to pretend that this whole scenario is actually happening - if we're going to assume the central conceit of a role-playing game, that these events could actually take place in some hypothetical world - then the true explanation can't be influenced by our awareness of it. Saying that it's just fiction, and that none of it is real, is dodging the question.It doesn’t fix that problem for other people, but other people might or might not have that problem. If a lot of people do, they might share their explanations, and develop a collective consensus on what the best one is. Sometimes such fanon even ends up getting elevated to canon.
So you're saying it's not impossible to overcome this issue...Yes, people can overlook those issues. Good for you. It's a lot harder when those issues are intrinsic and impact areas of internal consistency. Sure, you can spend a lot of time like Charlaquin and rationalize everything with increasingly absurd explanation.
Hey, we do all like D&D, so clearly we have a very high tolerance for suck.but some of us prefer things that do not suck, thank you.
I've certainly experienced moments of relative immersion even a context as profoundly abstract as a TTRPG, even strung them together enough to accumulate some particular investment in the character.I mean, no one should care about immersion. It’s a meaningless buzzword, and it’s not really necessary to the enjoyment of an RPG.
By the time you say that to yourself, it's too late, the moment of immersion has passed. But, yes, coming up with a way of imagining it that works better for you should help next time...If you find yourself saying, “wait, that doesn’t make any sense!” try thinking of an explanation that does make sense. It’s good for your brain, it’s easier than coming up with house-rules to “fix” all the things that “don’t make sense,” and it makes the game more enjoyable.
You’ve been exceptionally patient and explained yourself extremely well. Let’s face it: they’re just not going to give you the satisfaction of acknowledging your point (which I happen to think is a very sound one). They’re too invested in their own point of view. Best to just let it go and not let it ruin your immersion... erm, your enjoyment of these message boards.Did ... you ... not .... notice ... that .... I .... specifically ... delineated ... TWO different ways that immersion can be broken?
And that I have been almost exclusively talking about the second (the "intrinsic" issues)? Did you miss the part where I said, "The second is more important from an RPG perspective; specifically, issues that are intrinsic."
And that you then proceeded to focus on the first? Yes, people can overlook those issues. Good for you. It's a lot harder when those issues are intrinsic and impact areas of internal consistency. Sure, you can spend a lot of time like Charlaquin and rationalize everything with increasingly absurd explanations (IT'S NOT A BUG, IT'S A FEATURE! IT'S NOT INTERNAL INCONSISTENCY, IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE IMAGINATIVE! IT'S NOT A RULES ERROR, IT'S A THRILLING CHANCE TO PRACTICE MINDFULNESS!), but some of us prefer things that do not suck, thank you.
I don't understand where you're going with this part above.Well, you may not have a problem with it, but I am guessing that this is from a general rules-perspective as opposed to an immersion perspective.
For example, your compatriot-in-argument, Charlaquin, thinks immersion is just a buzzword. But that's because (as in this post) the two of you are used to arguing about rules.
Heck no. Touch my monkey.If you are playing, say, Cthulhu, and you're an hour-and-half into the game, and everything has been building this gradual sense of horror, and you're feeling it, and you open a door behind which is the eldritch horror you're sure will drive you (your character) beyond the bend, and the GM says, "Hey it's Mike Meyers, and he's going to do his Dieter Impression" and then proceeds to do a 30 minute, terrible, Sprockets routine and then says that he Dieter wants you to love his abshmienke ... does that break immersion for you?
I have no control over the DM or the stars. I only have control over myself. That's where I'll start to look for solutions, even if I may also reach out to the DM for help.Maybe?
No, of course not! The fault is not with the DM, Iserith, or with the stars, the fault is with YOU for not being fully immersed.
Shame on you. Immerse yourself better.
I haven’t made any comments about quality or burdens. All writers make continuity mistakes from time to time, and yes, that is on them. Working to reduce such mistakes as much as possible is part of improving as a writer. But, once the creative work is released, it’s released. Any mistakes that were not caught before that point are now part of the work. If there are a lot of mistakes, especially serious ones, that reflects poorly on the quality of the work. But pointing out the mistake won’t make it go away. When you notice a mistake in a work, you can complain about it, or you can come up with your own explanation that satisfies you.You're still trying to pass the burden for bad writing from the writer to the audience. The problem isn't that my standards are too high. The problem is that the quality of the product is too low.
Indeed, if you just stop at “well, none of it is real, so it doesn’t matter if it’s consistent or not,” then we are dodging the question. It is also dodging the question to say “this inconsistency breaks my immersion” and leave it at that. If we want to answer the question, we must accept that what has happened in the fiction has happened in the fiction and does not match our expectations of what would happen in reality and then come up with an in-fiction reason how it happened.The inconsistency is there, regardless of whether anyone notices it. If we're going to pretend that this whole scenario is actually happening - if we're going to assume the central conceit of a role-playing game, that these events could actually take place in some hypothetical world - then the true explanation can't be influenced by our awareness of it. Saying that it's just fiction, and that none of it is real, is dodging the question.
They don't much slow recovery in the practical sense.... why are all the houserule fixes that supposedly help better immersion also turn PCs into glass cannons with slow recovery?