What CAN a warblade use with a maneuver?

[Henry]

So if it's using "attack" you can add it. If it's using "attack action", you can't.

Huh? Confused again, dammit.

Example: Using Mountain Hammer (the +2d6 one, std. action).

We said you can Power Attack with it: "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round..."

Can you sunder with it? "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding."

Can you grapple with it? "Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll."

Can you disarm with it? "As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent."

I know you can't feint, full attack, Overrun, bull rush, because those are all described with standard or full-round actions.

 

[hong]

Example: Using Mountain Hammer (the +2d6 one, std. action).

We said you can Power Attack with it: "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round..."

Can you sunder with it? "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding."

Can you grapple with it? "Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll."

Can you disarm with it? "As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent."

I know you can't feint, full attack, Overrun, bull rush, because those are all described with standard or full-round actions.

No to all of those, because of this specific line:

"You cannot combine special attacks, such as sunder or bull rush with strikes..."

This is entirely separate to all that business of attacks, attack actions, standard actions, and so on.

 

[hong]

... Damn, now I'm becoming unsure too.

CURSE YOU, HENRY!

 

[Arkhandus]

And I think most strikes have a line that says "Target: One creature" or the like, don't they?

Don't start doubting yourself hong!


But yeah, you can't combine most strikes with other special attacks or attack adjustments, because a strike does not use an attack action nor a full-attack action, so Combat Expertise doesn't work with a strike. Likewise Spring Attack is out of the question; it says 'when using an attack action with a melee weapon', and strikes don't use attack actions. And you can't use a strike with any feat or ability that requires using a standard action or full-round action to activate, because the strike itself would require such an action and you don't get two of 'em in a round. So if there, potentially, any kind of strike that worked with a projectile weapon, you wouldn't be able to use Manyshot with it, because you wouldn't have enough standard actions in the round to activate both the strike and the feat.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Example: Using Mountain Hammer (the +2d6 one, std. action).

We said you can Power Attack with it: "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round..."

Can you sunder with it? "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding."
Answer: Nope, because sunder is it's own action.

Can you grapple with it? "Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll."
Answer: Nope, again because grappling is it's own nightmare.

Can you disarm with it? "As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent."
Answer: Same as sunder.

I know you can't feint, full attack, Overrun, bull rush, because those are all described with standard or full-round actions.
Answer: Bingo.

A good rule-of-thumb I've found is that if it modifies your attack roll (such as Power Attack, fighting defensively, Combat Expertise) or allows for an attack action, then it can be combined with a standard-action maneuver. If it requires an action in and of itself (Disarm, Sunder, Grappling, etc), then it can't. Seems to work for the group I play in.

 

[blargney the second]

Just musing out loud:
1) Combat Expertise requires "the attack action in melee".
2) Most strikes "involve a melee attack as part of completing the maneuver".

I think that the standard action of initiating a strike grants you a melee attack action as a sub-component, in addition to the light show special effects. You can then apply Combat Expertise to the melee attack action that the strike provides.
-blarg

 

[Henry]

OK, so in a nutshell, power attack is the ONLY thing that'll work?

 

[satori01]

(eg Spring Attack) or a full attack (eg haste, TWF) or something else (eg charge). However, things like Cleave still work.

Spring Attack I think gets people confused because in 3.0, you still got a Standard action you just split up your move before & after the Standard Action.....which honestly I like better.

A Desert Wind Swordsage was meant to run around like Speedy Gonzalez pausing to deal one single hit....in play it would not be that much different that an archery specialized Ranger, able to do good consistent damage, w/o taking a lot of damage, but not able to stand up to melee.

Likewise I would say an exception for Combat Expertise would not be reasonable. Despite the differing language, (Expertise I believe did not change between editions and Power Attack did) in 3.0 besides the cap for Expertise, the effect of Power Attack and Expertise were nearly identical. That would tell me like some other rules that the Intent for Combat Expertise probably did change, the definition of attack action did.

 

[Arkhandus]

Thing is blargney, the attack action is a specific type of standard action. Combat Expertise and Spring Attack therefore cannot be used with Strikes, no more than they could be used with casting a spell as a standard action. Because Strikes use their own kind of standard action to activate, same as casting a spell requires its own separate standard action (barring spells with unusual casting times).

Sure it sucks, but that's the way the rules are worded.

 

[starwed]

Just to note: the book does describe using Combat Expertise with a strike in the rules for one of the weapon enhancements. (The enhancement grants a bonus to your attack roll when using a strike, and the flavor text states that most martial adepts use it with power attack or combat expertise.)