What can protect PCs from Blasphemy with incredibly high CL?

[Infiniti2000]

There are two problems:

1. blasphemy, et al are broken. These spells simply need to be fixed. My personal recommendation is to offer a save to move a victim up one "level" on the chart.

2. Half-Fiend attempts to set its own, very badly thought out, precedent: assigning the caster level equal to the HD. I can't recall anywhere else this is done. Not even granting multiple practiced spellcaster feats would equal the absurdity of this change in 3.5. This should be changed to something like the highest spell-level (equivalent) granted times two, or maybe equal to the new (as modified by the template) CR. Note that there's not even a rule or guideline to increase CL on spell-like abilities of monsters when advancing monsters by HD. That alone should tell you how suspect these templates are.

 

[Arkhandus]

Sure, but the wording of the Aligned one says that they mimic the dominant alignment of the plane. It never says that they choose a plane, or that they mimic the dominant alignment of every plane they've ever been to, all the time. It implies that they only mimic the plane that they're on at any given time. They take that ability with them wherever they go, mimicking whatever plane they're on, rather than having to choose a specific plane to mimic.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Man, what? We're talking about half-fiends. It's a template. Here's how it works with regards to hit dice: -- N

This is all about a half-fiend?! Sorry, I assumed a normal fiend with it at will, or at least several times a day. Not once . There's lots of neat-o 1/day screw-job effects out there if you're determined to be a RBDM and actually build a creature's battle plans solely around the use of this wonderful one-shot ability, like they don't have to worry about any thing else, ever. I thought this was about things like Balors that can toss it around all day, my bad.

(And I'm not saying you shouldn't use the nasty 1/day abilities on the PCs ever, just...it should carry some common sense. Monster's not gonna open up turn 1 with it. The guys he's facing might turn out ot be total wimps, he can't afford to "waste" it. Only once he's actually in serious mortal danger should he be breaking it out. All IMHO)

One more note.... 4 HD before Blasphemy, the half-fiend gets Poison three times per day. With a DC that scales with CL, with CL = HD. For some severe Con damage. Don't all the problems with huge HD creatures using Blasphemy also apply here?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sure, but the wording of the Aligned one says that they mimic the dominant alignment of the plane.

Shifting uses the same 'the plane' language: "You instinctively anticipate shifts in the reality of the plane..." ... but it's been confirmed that the ability works even if you're not on a plane with the Shifting trait.

You're carrying the Shifting trait with you, even when you're not on a Shifting plane.

Similarly, the Aligned Planar Master carries the Evil-Aligned planar trait with him, even when he's not on an evil-aligned plane... he gets the effects whether he's in the relevant terrain or not. In this case, he's not in the relevant terrain (evil-aligned plane), but he gets the effects.

-Hyp.

 

[Shin Okada]

Sorry for not responding to this thread for a while. My poor old eMac died and now I am trying to re-construct my connection to www via new machine.

Anyway, I am not trying to use a monster advanced by additional HDs. There already are many monsters with much higher HDs than it's CR and they appear in official 3.0e/3.5e adventures.

As already mentioned, some great wyrm dragons have nearly +20 HDs comparing to it's CR. And adventure writers in WotC seem to really love Half-Fiend (and Half-Dragon) template. Also in Draconomicon, there is a prestige class called Disciple of Ashardalon which is basally a Half-Fiend version of Dragon Disciple (for dragons).

Well, I guess frankthedm's suggestion is the right way to go. I remember there was an article regarding half-fiend template and replacing some spell-like abilities to others. Blasphemy seems to be broken, especially when some monsters have much higher Caster Level (or HDs when applying Half-Fiend Template) than their CR.

 

[frankthedm]

(And I'm not saying you shouldn't use the nasty 1/day abilities on the PCs ever, just...it should carry some common sense. Monster's not gonna open up turn 1 with it. The guys he's facing might turn out ot be total wimps, he can't afford to "waste" it. Only once he's actually in serious mortal danger should he be breaking it out. All IMHO)

Main things are that total wimps don't last long enough to be where thesse kind of beings hang out and that most times for BBEGs, intruders are not regular things. Just like Busting into a Evil Caster's private sanctum earns a face-full of Sudden Maximized and possibly Sudden Quickened Spell of Pain, the act of encountering the being in question proves how dangerous the interlopers are .

One more note.... 4 HD before Blasphemy, the half-fiend gets Poison three times per day. With a DC that scales with CL, with CL = HD. For some severe Con damage. Don't all the problems with huge HD creatures using Blasphemy also apply here?

No. They don't. At least not until Greater Dispel takes down the parties Heroes Feast, which grants poison immunity.

 

[frankthedm]

Well, I guess frankthedm's suggestion is the right way to go. I remember there was an article regarding half-fiend template and replacing some spell-like abilities to others. Blasphemy seems to be broken, especially when some monsters have much higher Caster Level (or HDs when applying Half-Fiend Template) than their CR.

The 3.5 Upgrade of Blasphemy / Holy Word is a real problem. Not just monsters either since there are Cleric builds that make it a point to really abuse that spell with boosted caster level.

Note that Blasphemy's range is a mere 40', and Colossal creatures occupy much of that real estate. I think a one-round TPK is nigh impossible, and I like the get-too-close-and-it's-instant-death-for-you mechanic.

Now this begs the question: Does a "centered on you" spell require larger creatures choose ONLY their center most intersection(s), or can they chose any intersection they have for the center of the spell?

The rules don't seem specific and it does make enough sense that a dragon can move it's head and neck to utter it's Unholy Word from the edge of it's space. It is not like it is a Blasphemous Belly Rumble

 

[Pinotage]

The OP mentioned the example of +10 HD over the party, a fiend (ie, tasty outsider HD), and access to Blasphemy as a spell-like. CR of 7 over the party sounds like a good rough estimate to me, perhaps even modest. Granted, i don't much know (or care) about the later, heavily, excrutiatingly broken Monster Manuals, but the should NOT be such a fiend that's anywhere near the party's appropriate CR. If there is...well, DM's have the wonderful power to ignore obviously poor additions to the game.

The half-fiend template at most adds +3 to the base creatures's CR. For your 7 CR estimate, the base creature would need to be 4 CR higher than the party. Now, granted, it's entirely possible that a creature with 10 extra HD is 4 CR higher, but more likely you'll find that higher HD creatures have CRs much lower than their HD.

Pinotage

 

[Bad Paper]

The rules don't seem specific and it does make enough sense that a dragon can move it's head and neck to utter it's Unholy Word from the edge of it's space. It is not like it is a Blasphemous Belly Rumble

I agree with you in general, and I futhermore believe that the RAW agree with you on this point. However, we are discussing a peculiar creature here, and one can argue that the effect may originate from a different part of this creature's anatomy (especially when descriptive theatrics creep into the game -- belly rumble is not far off). When you cut to the heart of the matter, this particular creature is likely to use this effect when closely flanked on multiple sides. Luckily, such flanking is inevitable, given the number of meat shields and sneak attackers in my group.

 

[Arkhandus]

Shifting uses the same 'the plane' language: "You instinctively anticipate shifts in the reality of the plane..." ... but it's been confirmed that the ability works even if you're not on a plane with the Shifting trait.

You're carrying the Shifting trait with you, even when you're not on a Shifting plane.

Similarly, the Aligned Planar Master carries the Evil-Aligned planar trait with him, even when he's not on an evil-aligned plane... he gets the effects whether he's in the relevant terrain or not. In this case, he's not in the relevant terrain (evil-aligned plane), but he gets the effects.

-Hyp.

No, that's no the same thing at all.

The Shifting Planar Mastery does not copy a particular plane's shifting features and give them to you, it just lets you take advantage of any plane's shifting planar forces or somesuch wierdness.

The Aligned Planar Mastery does not give you the Evil trait or somesuch; that is not what Planar Mastery it gives you. It gives you an adapt-to-the-local-environment ability, THAT is the Planar Mastery trait it gives you. THAT is what you carry with you wherever you go, the ability to adapt to aligned planes and mimic their alignment for purposes of magical effects.

The SIDE EFFECT of having the Aligned Planar Mastery special ability is what gives you the Evil trait when you're on an Evil plane. You take the alignment-adaptation ability with you wherever you go, not just adapting to the first aligned plane you visit; but gaining the faux Evil alignment is just a side effect of having that adaptation ability.


The wording of the two abilities is quite different. Shifting Planar Mastery directly gives you a teleportive ability; it does not say "If you visit a shifting plane, you may use that plane's shifting effects on other planes to move about in new ways". The Shifting Planar Mastery DIRECTLY gives you Dimension Door ability, it does not say you have to copy it from some particular plane, or that you copy other shifting planes' planar traits.

The Aligned Planar Mastery DIRECTLY gives you the ability to mimic a plane's dominant alignment. That is the only ability it gives you. The APM itself does not give you every alignment component.

It only gives you the ability to mimic them when you're on appropriate planes. So when you're in Limbo, you're Chaotic for purposes of magical effects; as soon as you step through a portal from there into Ba'ator (just for argument's sake), you're Lawful Evil for purposes of magical effects, no longer Chaotic for those purposes.