What changes from 3.0 to 3.5 should *not* have been made?
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VirgilCaine
First Post
wilder_jw said:
Of course, I have no actual knowledge of the effect, having never played a game that used it.
I'm one of those Non-Gaming gamers--I'd like to, but I don't have time.
If I was going to change it from 3.0 to 3.5, I would have given it, say 1d6 subdual damage per round, a Fort save or take 1 Con damage at the end of the duration, and a hefty material component of 250 gp, maybe of a specific substance.
THAT would be fixing it. Giving additional costs to the spell, NOT changing the whole effect of the spell.
If it 3.0 haste was THAT HORRIBLY OVERPOWERED it would have been houseruled somewhat similar to the above on a massive, universal scale.
AFAIK this wasn't done. Was it?
Was it really so bad? Really? Because I don't see cause for changing the whole effect. I can see how it might be a problem and merit my treatment.
And all those people who said they would still take Haste, even if it was a 9th level spell are dense. Take Time Stop instead. Time Stop lets you examine the ambush (which high-level attacks are mostly) and decide what to do--attack retreat, etc.
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Haste
It was a spell that every single character who had it in their spell list would select, every day, several times if possible. No character who could cast it would not take, except that they had some item that reproduced its effect, or another caster they could rely on to do the same. Once my group "discovered" it, it became the standard modus operandi. IMO, when a spell does this, the spell is overbalanced.
Also, for a while (until I quit DMing that campaign), the Wizard would seriously overshadow the other characters because he would routinely haste himself, destroy the opposition, repeat, until he needed to recharge his spells. Then he could teleport home, and repeat in the morning. He even boasted that he did not really need the party.
1. A feat (Quicken Spell).
2. A spell slot 4 levels higher than the lower of the two they plan to cast /each round they cast two spells/.
3. A limitation on the level of the extra spell of 4 less than their highest spell slot.
4. Knowing in advance which spell they would like to quicken.
With your treatment it is hard to balance against the power granted.
Haste in 3.0 would allow two spells per round 18 times for an 18th level wizard. The high level wizard in our campaign /always/ took haste, and /always/ cast it.
Try playing once in a while. You will see.
As a regular gamer (I gave up TV)VirgilCaine said:
The damage you suggest is fixable with a low level clerical spell or two. The money is little object to players (who wouldn't pay 250 gp to defeat a CR 7 bunch of monsters).
It is hard to get the worms back into the can. Once players have enjoyed a priviledge, especially one so "officially" sanctioned and enshrined in the rules, it is very hard to back them away from it. I am sure many DMs are affected by player pressure (much like the pressure you are using in this debate). The day I read on WOTC's site about the upcoming revision to haste, I used this to "house rule" haste in my campaign.
It was a spell that every single character who had it in their spell list would select, every day, several times if possible. No character who could cast it would not take, except that they had some item that reproduced its effect, or another caster they could rely on to do the same. Once my group "discovered" it, it became the standard modus operandi. IMO, when a spell does this, the spell is overbalanced.
Also, for a while (until I quit DMing that campaign), the Wizard would seriously overshadow the other characters because he would routinely haste himself, destroy the opposition, repeat, until he needed to recharge his spells. Then he could teleport home, and repeat in the morning. He even boasted that he did not really need the party.
The core problem is allowing a back door where spell-casters can cast two spells per round. Look at the other mechanism and compare the cost.
1. A feat (Quicken Spell).
2. A spell slot 4 levels higher than the lower of the two they plan to cast /each round they cast two spells/.
3. A limitation on the level of the extra spell of 4 less than their highest spell slot.
4. Knowing in advance which spell they would like to quicken.
With your treatment it is hard to balance against the power granted.
Haste in 3.0 would allow two spells per round 18 times for an 18th level wizard. The high level wizard in our campaign /always/ took haste, and /always/ cast it.
Try playing once in a while. You will see.
JRRNeiklot
First Post
billd91 said:
A fighter with tracking skills, who's good with animals, but not just a woodsman. He's a protector of the weak and downtrodden, also a scholar, shown by dabbling a bit in spells. He's Arragorn, but could be Daniel Boone just as well, if you don't want spells. He is NOT Robin Hood.
Anyways, I've had this argument a dozen times, and you're right, on this board, I'm in the minority, but so what? The majority of American's seem to like Survivor and Friends, but they both make me puke. Being a majority doesn't necessarily make one right. Every ranger since 1e has gotten a little bit farther from its roots, and imo, that's a bad thing.
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VirgilCaine
First Post
I never knew that Cure spells cured subdual also...hmmmmm [Checks SRD] ...and it does.dimonic said:
At any rate, I DIDN'T JUST SAY MONEY!
I said a MATERIAL COMPONENT! Material Components -=- Money!
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Jeff Wilder
First Post
VirgilCaine said:
Personally, I have no problem conceding this point. Yes, 3.0 haste, as broken as it was, is, in fact, less powerful than the ninth-level spell time stop.
There ya go.
Jeff
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Cordo said:People who want to keep their extra spell casting actions... Rods of Quicken are now core and priced appopriately high.
Still broke, and I find it ironic that you used the word "high"
Vocenoctum
First Post
I don't like;
Double Power Attack: I see the need to counter the (effectively) double PA of the two weapon guy, but coupled with the change for no PA on light weapons, I think it's not needed.
Gnome as Bard: the typical rogue-illusionist isn't a bard, but now it's nearly impossible. Arcane trickster needs enough levels already, let alone another rogue level.
AoO on Standing from Prone: It worked well as a feat track from Dragon, but automatically? It's just too much.
Stuff I like (that others complain about);
Weapon Sizing; it's great, and broadens the Small weapons immensely. If you have to house rule something constantly (creating small versions) then perhaps the system doesn't work?
Paladin's Mount: I was a little on the fence at first, but like it now. When you get the ability, the mount lasts 10 hours, that's a day of riding, so what's the harm?
Buff Spells: I inititally houseruled it to 10min per level, but in the latest game I decided to try it as stock (1min/level) and see how it goes. Hard to say without having played it yet.
Double Power Attack: I see the need to counter the (effectively) double PA of the two weapon guy, but coupled with the change for no PA on light weapons, I think it's not needed.
Gnome as Bard: the typical rogue-illusionist isn't a bard, but now it's nearly impossible. Arcane trickster needs enough levels already, let alone another rogue level.
AoO on Standing from Prone: It worked well as a feat track from Dragon, but automatically? It's just too much.
Stuff I like (that others complain about);
Weapon Sizing; it's great, and broadens the Small weapons immensely. If you have to house rule something constantly (creating small versions) then perhaps the system doesn't work?
Paladin's Mount: I was a little on the fence at first, but like it now. When you get the ability, the mount lasts 10 hours, that's a day of riding, so what's the harm?
Buff Spells: I inititally houseruled it to 10min per level, but in the latest game I decided to try it as stock (1min/level) and see how it goes. Hard to say without having played it yet.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I still use my 3.0e houserule for haste -
1 target, get +4 hit, +4 Reflex ST, +4 AC, double movement.
Slow works in reverse... -4 to hit, AC and Ref ST, half movement.
I still like this conceptually and mechanically.
Cheers
1 target, get +4 hit, +4 Reflex ST, +4 AC, double movement.
Slow works in reverse... -4 to hit, AC and Ref ST, half movement.
I still like this conceptually and mechanically.
Cheers
