D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to bring the game back to the dungeon?

[Reynard]

Exactly my point. Given that "going back to the dungeon" is something that people say over and over again, with each new edition if not more frequently, it's obvious that there is a significant plurality that doesn't really like dungeon-delving. Understanding why not is key to answering the question posed in the OP in a meaningful way. Of course, the answer may well be, for that significant plurality, that it doesn't matter what you do; they just aren't interested in dungeons.

But the question isn't presented in a marketing or design strategy meeting. It is explicitly presented as a hypothetical for people that love D&D, love dungeons, and want those things to work together. In the context of this question no one cares about the opinions of people that don't like dungeons. They're irrelevant.

 

[Bill Zebub]

On the light issue:

1) Sometimes when you are relying completely on darkvision, you are going to miss important stuff.
2) Sometimes, when you are relying completely on light cantrips, monsters will see you coming.
3) There is no way to know for certain which of those two scenarios is coming next.

I don’t understand what the problem is.

 

[Incenjucar]

Maybe set cantrips to x3 proficiency/day, and see if that helps as a starter.

 

[Charlaquin]

So... you can't have a large adventure location without it being OSR?

I did say “or whatever number.” You can certainly hate large adventure locations without it being OSR, I just find that modern play doesn’t tend to mesh as well with dungeons, outside of the n-room variety. YMMV.

And it's foolish to expect a thread on dungeons in the new Dungeons and Dragons to be about Dungeons and Dragons instead of its offshoots?

I said no such thing.

 

[Reynard]

On the light issue:

1) Sometimes when you are relying completely on darkvision, you are going to miss important stuff.
2) Sometimes, when you are relying completely on light cantrips, monsters will see you coming.
3) There is no way to know for certain which of those two scenarios is coming next.

I don’t understand what the problem is.

This is true. I guess my primary quibble with light as a cantrip is that it doesn't inform the question of "do we push further" like torches might. After all, you still need to get out. If you delve too deep and can't find your way out you could be well and truly [sorry Eric's Grandma]. One of the most interesting things about deep dungeon exploration to me is the PCs trying to decide how far to push themselves based on how many hit points, spell slots and, yes, torches they have left. That's good, dramatic stuff.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think it would be more appealing to go back to dungeon crawling if the main argument wasnt ''remove a bunch of stuff from the player side and have them track a bunch of small things''.

My main idea would be to go back to fun-house dungeons. Yes its quirky, but the whole game isnt really pushing for realism anyway. Think Zelda dungeons, for example.

30 years of video games taught me that having puzzles and non-combat challenge is way more fun than endless corridors with traps and rooms full of monsters. Give us better chase mechanics, or even platforming mechanic is possible! The tombs of the false gods and the tomb of annihilation at the end of ToA are full of moving parts and evolving rooms, so clearly its possible.

As for the light, one way to keep the cantrip would be to make it create an handheld item only, like Produce Flame. Dancing Light would be for ranged option, but requires concentration, so that's not too bad. And make large use of magical darkness! and dead magic zones! or just heavy smokes that act like darkness but is not affected by light sources!

 

[James Gasik]

On the light issue:

1) Sometimes when you are relying completely on darkvision, you are going to miss important stuff.
2) Sometimes, when you are relying completely on light cantrips, monsters will see you coming.
3) There is no way to know for certain which of those two scenarios is coming next.

I don’t understand what the problem is.

As near as I can tell, here's what's going on. Some DM's have gotten used to using darkness as a tool to surprise players and keep them on their toes. Light sources, to them, are a trade off- how many minutes of light do you have? What do you have to give up (shields, two handed weapons) to have it?

This has run right into players wanting magic-users to feel magical at all times, not fire off a sleep spell and be reduced to throwing darts or flaming oil, as well as a general apathy towards the style of play that has you tracking ammo and rations.

WotC claims that 5e is more friendly to the old school approach to gaming, but it doesn't take long to realize that's really lip service. Cantrips that are as effective as crossbows are available to most caster classes; they also don't require ammunition. Light is plentiful. Spells that provide food, water, and shelter are common.

Adventure guidelines lean into limited encounters between rests, there's lots of out of combat healing available if groups want to use it, and players have ample opportunities to "opt out" of parts of the game that they may not find enjoyable. In addition, these same guidelines tell us to award players with tons of money, so purchasing ammo, rations, or whatever is generally not a problem either, as long as you can carry the stuff. Anyone can learn to use Thieves' Tools, Feats exist that make finding traps and secret doors a snap.

Honestly, I'm actually surprised darkvision has a penalty at all, though many groups seem to ignore it entirely, and some are optimized to the point that the disadvantage doesn't even slow them down.* I mean, darkvision had no real disadvantages to speak of in 3e and 4e, and I don't remember that being a big problem either.

*Supposedly. When I run, and enforce the disadvantage, I've had players run into ambushes and traps enough to make them break out a light source, but I've had people claim this isn't a meaningful enough penalty.

The only way to force a certain style of play is to put your foot down and invoke optional rules- but to my mind, if the players really want to just hang out in their Leomund's Portable Bomb Shelter and eat Goodberries, why not let them? It's obvious they don't think getting lost in the wilderness and scrounging for edible grubs and tubers is any fun- if it was, then they wouldn't be using these options.

I mean, so what if the party isn't using light? Most monsters have ways to not need light either, so the way I see it, it's a wash. Granted, there are things like Drow, Warlocks, and Twilight Clerics that can give themselves a much longer range than 60', but that's not usually what the complaints are about- it's more that "too many" races have darkvision.

 

[Jahydin]

How so?

Looks like to me they are putting all their time and resources into making digital "Dungeon Lego" sets. If all you can do is build dungeons with those Lego, then more dungeons it will be.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

This is true. I guess my primary quibble with light as a cantrip is that it doesn't inform the question of "do we push further" like torches might. After all, you still need to get out. If you delve too deep and can't find your way out you could be well and truly [sorry Eric's Grandma]. One of the most interesting things about deep dungeon exploration to me is the PCs trying to decide how far to push themselves based on how many hit points, spell slots and, yes, torches they have left. That's good, dramatic stuff.

Isn't that just tied to their hit points? As your hit points go down, so does your ability to use your darkvision (because if you're dead, you can't see in the dark anymore).

 

[Micah Sweet]

As near as I can tell, here's what's going on. Some DM's have gotten used to using darkness as a tool to surprise players and keep them on their toes. Light sources, to them, are a trade off- how many minutes of light do you have? What do you have to give up (shields, two handed weapons) to have it?

This has run right into players wanting magic-users to feel magical at all times, not fire off a sleep spell and be reduced to throwing darts or flaming oil, as well as a general apathy towards the style of play that has you tracking ammo and rations.

WotC claims that 5e is more friendly to the old school approach to gaming, but it doesn't take long to realize that's really lip service. Cantrips that are as effective as crossbows are available to most caster classes; they also don't require ammunition. Light is plentiful. Spells that provide food, water, and shelter are common.

Adventure guidelines lean into limited encounters between rests, there's lots of out of combat healing available if groups want to use it, and players have ample opportunities to "opt out" of parts of the game that they may not find enjoyable. In addition, these same guidelines tell us to award players with tons of money, so purchasing ammo, rations, or whatever is generally not a problem either, as long as you can carry the stuff. Anyone can learn to use Thieves' Tools, Feats exist that make finding traps and secret doors a snap.

Honestly, I'm actually surprised darkvision has a penalty at all, though many groups seem to ignore it entirely, and some are optimized to the point that the disadvantage doesn't even slow them down.* I mean, darkvision had no real disadvantages to speak of in 3e and 4e, and I don't remember that being a big problem either.

*Supposedly. When I run, and enforce the disadvantage, I've had players run into ambushes and traps enough to make them break out a light source, but I've had people claim this isn't a meaningful enough penalty.

The only way to force a certain style of play is to put your foot down and invoke optional rules- but to my mind, if the players really want to just hang out in their Leomund's Portable Bomb Shelter and eat Goodberries, why not let them? It's obvious they don't think getting lost in the wilderness and scrounging for edible grubs and tubers is any fun- if it was, then they wouldn't be using these options.

I mean, so what if the party isn't using light? Most monsters have ways to not need light either, so the way I see it, it's a wash. Granted, there are things like Drow, Warlocks, and Twilight Clerics that can give themselves a much longer range than 60', but that's not usually what the complaints are about- it's more that "too many" races have darkvision.

The reason you don't just let them ignore all that stuff is because  you don't want to run that kind of game. At least, that's why I don't.