D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to push the game more toward story?

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

The thing here is you are saying

1. You have never played anything other than D&D
2. You are therefore confident that you understand what you don't want despite no experience with other games
3. D&D has, as I've mentioned, some story pushing mechanics (which you, when questioned are fine with)

1 and 3 are correct, not #2, if you consider leveling story pushing (which I don’t)

 

[Neonchameleon]

Do you want story to be slower and more stressful and to involve less combat?

No. I want the story to be faster. I want every fight to mean something and to have consequences on the table. The single slowest thing possible is a period of time that takes an hour or so in real time and where nothing of consequence happens.

I don't understand the "on rails" thing unless you also do not want a class-based game.

Apocalypse World is a class based game. The problem isn't classes, but levels.

The best class in 5e for character development is the Warlock because you get to choose how you level up, by picking invocations. Two warlocks are not the same as each other (and it would be better if you replaced roughly half the invocations with good ones). Second best is either the sorcerer (your spells are determined with each level) or the artificer (what did you spend your time learning how to create)? Most of the classes with spells have either the same spell list or at worse can switch books.

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread I've used changing subclasses in 5e as both character growth and as consequences. And also the OneD&D feats being better balanced and generally better than ASI increase also gives more options for growth.

Maybe the WoD-style rules would work better?

WoD is little more than point buy. Classes have their advantages. All WoD characters are more or less playing the same game. I prefer the WoD experience mechanics - but I prefer the diversity of starting points of a class based system. Apocalypse World gives me the benefits of both and some things of its own.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

What exactly is the gap trying to be filled here?
A story is characters doing stuff and stuff happening to characters. Are characters not doing stuff or having stuff happen to them?

Well, I mean, if all we define story as is "whatever happens to the PCs" then what's the point of any discussion of what happens? Obviously the happening must have certain qualities which can be attributed to it, right? I think it is more a question of whether the 'story' in your sense is or is not in any sense dramatic or interesting. Is it simply a long rambling list of scenes with no unifying theme? Do the characters have some sort of substance to them, or are they simply 'pogs' in a game focused on some other goal like 'who can get the most GP' or something like that?

So, what Dungeon World does, as an example, is to set the scene, the world is fantastic, its dangerous, the PCs are unique individuals, and some sort of 'stuff' is happening in this world (which is independent of, but will inevitably have an effect on, the PCs). Also whatever this stuff is, it is chosen to correspond in some degree to the avowed interests/character traits of the players and their PCs. The PCs have traits, like bonds and an alignment (kind of a primary personality concept) that the players will engage with, because they get XP for that. Whenever the PCs roll low, whenever the players don't know what they want to do next, or whenever the GM is given a 'golden opportunity' (IE if the PCs ignore some obvious danger) then the GM makes a move, usually a hard move. The GM may also make soft moves, which just draw doom closer (IE your 2nd to last torch just guttered out, and you're a mile underground). The upshot is that PCs are always getting into something, and its always got an element of trouble to it!

So, its not like there IS a story, certainly not explicitly, but it is true that DW, unlike D&D kind of cannot function when something interesting isn't happening, and if that situation arises, the GM literally hits the party with something, immediately. There isn't ever the possibility you are just putzing around or that the PCs have to go to the action. I mean, you could decide nothing happens for a while, but that sort of period would be elided in DW. You wouldn't normally talk about how the halfling makes dinner, unless it has some potential to 'go somewhere'.

 

[Incenjucar]

The reason I note what a story is is that these conversations usually start with " more x" but mean "more version of X that I like better". The latter is far more usable.

You can always skip playing out combat and just make it a roll for outcomes consequences if that's not a part you're interested in. Any scenario with complex meaningful choices will happen at the speed of the people at your table, so there's a hard limit to speeding up combat in unless you take away combat options.

I get a desire for more complex character options and build-your-own mechanics. Feats are great for this, of course. I think just adding more classes would work here, maybe stuff that's a little more like 13th Age. No guarantee of getting story from it, though.

Things like theme are up to DMs and players. While there's certainly plenty of advice that can be provided, setting up an interesting world and events and inviting the players to interact with whatever parts they find interesting is all that's needed.

The tricky part is teaching people how to make engaging worlds so players want to engage with it.

 

[pemerton]

A story generally has protagonists, dramatic needs, rising action, and climax.

The examples of play in Gygax's DMG, and in Moldvay Basic, don't demonstrate these as elements of play.

The example of play in Apocalypse World clearly does.

Which is 5e D&D closer to, when typically played? The example in the Basic PDF is more like those classic D&D examples, than it is like AW.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I get a desire for more complex character options and build-your-own mechanics. Feats are great for this, of course. I think just adding more classes would work here, maybe stuff that's a little more like 13th Age. No guarantee of getting story from it, though.

More classes aren't wanted so much as better classes. What's needed on this one is more defining options within the class which is why I'm pointing out Invocations and known spells rather than spells you can change every morning.

Things like theme are up to DMs and players. While there's certainly plenty of advice that can be provided, setting up an interesting world and events and inviting the players to interact with whatever parts they find interesting is all that's needed.

The tricky part is teaching people how to make engaging worlds so players want to engage with it.

And how to make engaging with your own flaws interesting as against the dopamine hit of success

 

[Neonchameleon]

A story generally has protagonists, dramatic needs, rising action, and climax.

The examples of play in Gygax's DMG, and in Moldvay Basic, don't demonstrate these as elements of play.

The example of play in Apocalypse World clearly does.

Which is 5e D&D closer to, when typically played? The example in the Basic PDF is more like those classic D&D examples, than it is like AW.

Protagonists: The PCs

Dramatic Needs: D&D really isn't very good at this.

Rising action: With a well written adventure. Although most have fairly flat action IME - and the test-your-luck of O&D with its attrition had more of this.

Climax: Any adventure worth writing should have this

 

[pemerton]

Rising action: With a well written adventure. Although most have fairly flat action IME - and the test-your-luck of O&D with its attrition had more of this.

Climax: Any adventure worth writing should have this

"The adventure" is a perennial issue in RPGing. Too loosely scripted: no story. Too tightly scripted: railroading.

That's why "story now" RPGs do away with the whole concept of it!

 

[Incenjucar]

...are we not already having final battles on dragon back over waterfalls wherein the PCs can realize the redemption they sought all along was never needed because the burden of their past was never something they should have carried and now they can truly be heroes, not just debtors paying their due?

 

[John R Davis]

As gamers, we do over analyse stuff don't we ?
I wonder how many of these in-depth discussions actually change the way we play?