D&D 4E What D&D 4e Should Learn From World of Warcraft

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

4. and 6. I don't think are really needed.
4. is always possible (and in fact, thanks to the fact that area effect spells usually don't distinguish friend and foe, "accidental" pvp is possible). Usually, only player and campaign dynamics avoid it, and I think that's for the better. D&D is first and foremost a cooperative game, and that's what I like most.
6. needs little rules, and I don't see spending time crafting items as "fun" - at least not during a game session. It might be fun working out magic items at home, though. If at all, D&D should support creative design combined with easy and fast rules to get what you want.
Fishing or similar activies? I really see no point to make it any kind of focus.

 

[Jack99]

DnD is just as easy to play as WoW. With a little help (which the AI provides in WoW) any 5 year old can roll a few dices (when told) and tell where he moves and who they attack.

Now understanding DnD might be harder, although most people who play WoW, even at the endgame, seem to have little understanding things like dps, threat, block contra dodge contra defense, +healing contra +mana etc etc. At least the rules of DnD are there for you to read.

Don't get me wrong, I found WoW to be easy to get. DnD has given me more trouble over the years, but that's mostly due to language issues concerning the intent of rules, contra how they are worded.

Cheers,

 

[delericho]

Sorry, the what? IFAIK we have seen four of the new monsters* and exactly one of them has any special abilities related to being bloodied. That hardly strikes me as 'overuse'.

(* If you count the 3.5ified Archon stats)

I could probably have been clearer. I'll try not to derail this thread too far...

By 'overuse' I didn't mean "X% of monsters have special 'Bloodied' rules", but rather "monsters of type X have special 'Bloodied' rules".

As I understand it, the Bloodied condition exists to change the 'feel' of combats as we move towards the endgame, such as generally happens in computer games when the End of Level Boss changes behaviour as it takes damage. I think that is a very good idea, and one that will add to the game a great deal.

However, it also carries the risk of becoming a book-keeping nightmare for a DM who has too many other things to worry about in the midst of a hectic combat. I would argue that, ideally, it should only be applied to monsters that are met as single creatures, or maybe in very small groups.

So, I was more than a little concerned to see what was, to all intents and purposes, a special 'Bloodied' rule for the new Archons, precisely because they're not End-Boss monsters.

That's all. It wasn't an attack on 4e, or on the use of the Bloodied condition. It was just a concern, especially when placed with the other things I listed.

 

[glass]

By 'overuse' I didn't mean "X% of monsters have special 'Bloodied' rules", but rather "monsters of type X have special 'Bloodied' rules".

As I understand it, the Bloodied condition exists to change the 'feel' of combats as we move towards the endgame, such as generally happens in computer games when the End of Level Boss changes behaviour as it takes damage. I think that is a very good idea, and one that will add to the game a great deal.

However, it also carries the risk of becoming a book-keeping nightmare for a DM who has too many other things to worry about in the midst of a hectic combat. I would argue that, ideally, it should only be applied to monsters that are met as single creatures, or maybe in very small groups.

So, I was more than a little concerned to see what was, to all intents and purposes, a special 'Bloodied' rule for the new Archons, precisely because they're not End-Boss monsters.

That's all. It wasn't an attack on 4e, or on the use of the Bloodied condition. It was just a concern, especially when placed with the other things I listed.

OK, I kinda see where you are coming from now, but I still don't agree: The only bookkeeping for Bloodied is tracking hit points. If that is a 'book-keeping nightmare' then the game has much bigger problems!


glass.

 

[mxyzplk]

Some of those points are good ones.

But...

Who wants to gather 4-6 players for a weekly session and then say 'you all go fishing'? Once as a novelty of downtime and rp maybe... More than that? Forget it. Most (not all) groups have a hard time scheduling to get together and will want to do more than fish.

PVP? irrelevant. I don't care a lick for PVP in MMO's, and there's no need or way to add it to 4th ed. D&D has always had PvP. One players goes "I stab the party in their sleep" and you're done. Players can and will turn on each other if that's the way you play. How do you reinforce or support that? Give them awards for killing each other? You could... But D&D already awards you XP and loot for kills, that technically can include party members.

Azeroth is no more deep or interesting than any other fantasy world (rpg, fiction, ccg, MMO or otherwise) to come about in the last 20 years or more. It ain't awful, but there's nothing enuinely novel there. So it's nothing to mimic really. That just sounds like WoW-love from a WoW-fan, apologies in advance if that isn't the case, but I have seen, played and read better.

Well, I actually don't disagree with your two points per se. But on the fishing comment - I've seen D&D groups of 6 grown men happily waste hours "shopping". Sure, you don't want all the time spent in the game to be doing crafting, but that doesn't mean crafting couldn't be a cool and important part of the game. Some people like to craft, buy & sell, et cetera. Feeding that rather than dissing that will lead to greater success.

And I'm not saying Azeroth is "better" than many established worlds - but that's my point really. IMO D&D should cleave to *some* core setting. It doesn't have to be Tolkien. (I never played Warcraft etc. before WoW, so I'm not one of the people with prior Azeroth love. But playing WoW you get a clear sense of "history" in it.) The direction they're going in 4e is tossing out even the loose link to Greyhawk of 3e and going for a completely generic thing. I agree that FR and Eberron and all that are well detailed - but they're not the CORE setting. Someone has to go buy them. Value is upped and learning curve reduced by having a core setting in the core books. One with more hooks to hang your hat on than "points of light."

 

[mxyzplk]

Its also called "D&D Mini'".

And that's a good point. TCGs and mini games are very popular, and they are "all PvP." Again, I'm not sure the best way to capture PvP in D&D, but it's worth some thought.

And PvP is not the antithesis of cooperative. You cooperate with your party and faction in WoW. You just happen to be fighting against another one also.

 

[Thanee]

Hey, they already learned from WoW... DDI monthly fee!

Bye
Thanee

 

[frankthedm]

So in that there WoW game can I take a shovel and dig a hole?

How breakable is the terrain?

If I want a boulder moved, can I use the Strength that rips apart bosses to move it?

If I want a more defendable location, can I dig out my own lair?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And yet, how many PvP servers are there compared to normal servers? Surely all-out PvP is NOT the draw of WoW. Sorry, you are just wrong here.

Consensual PvP definitely won the day here. It's not like PvP is unavailable on other servers.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

OK, I kinda see where you are coming from now, but I still don't agree: The only bookkeeping for Bloodied is tracking hit points. If that is a 'book-keeping nightmare' then the game has much bigger problems!


glass.

While I like the "Bloodied" mechanic, I can absolutely see his point.
These days, you don't have to check a creatures hit points before the character has hit him. You just check after you have applied the damage.
Now, you might have to check earlier, because the player will want to know whether he can use his per encounter "finishing blow" ability, or whether he just gets a +2 bonus to attack, or the monster gains a +2 bonus to its defense and so on.

Though the actual consequences depend on how the individual abilties triggered by the condition do work. If you could say when applying the damage "Oh, he is already bloodied, so roll your +4d6 dice from "finishing blow now" or "by the way, you get 2d6 of acid damage from the monsters blood you splattered around", then it's probably not that difficult.

This can especially become a problem if you have multiple creatures with different hit points ("Who was bloodied again? Target of player 1 or player 2? Oh wait, player 2 switched around this round")